Joebob

A few tips: Weapon SAs should be Fire and Death. Normal crit damage increases dagger damage. Your element is quite high for TOI level 1. You might be able to trade weapon elemental attack for damage elsewhere. Attack element damage for TOI 1 caps at 1530. Anymore element above that for TOI 1 does not increase your damage. As a dagger, a level 110 POM Iss increases your damage by 56.25% just from POM alone. I recommend any dagger have an alt POM iss and gear it enough to tank for you. They can debuff and give you angels. Unless you one shot everything, angels is pretty important. They can also pull agro with AOEs so you can rear stab mobs in TOI (if your iss is strong enough). If you're not using a mouse macro, use one. It's mandatory for TOI. With a mouse macro you can land rear stabs. Without a mouse macro it's nearly impossible. With a mouse macro, your kill speed anywhere will increase significantly. All of your stabs should be using /useskillforce (even if you're using a mouse macro). This will stop you from doing auto attacks which increases your stabs per second. (Careful not to PK people) Besides those, just keep upgrading gear efficiently over time. There's no shortcut to being able to do TOI 1. Just takes time to get strong enough. It doesn't feel that long ago where I couldn't do TOI 1. Now I can do TOI 8 easily. Gluck.

Even if they never respond (and they probably won't) it's still worth it to complain and ask. If no one ever complained, we would definitely never see any changes.

If we got the cookies as a bonus like we originally thought, I stand by my post. They would have just been a bonus to opening loot boxes. However, we don't get bonus cookies and they're not tradeable so you need to open a ton of boxes just to get a single 5% chance craft. Otherwise you just get some overpriced mediocre pots. It's just sad and depressing.

Even if the list had all stage 3 god jewels, stage 3 DW and lvl 10 wings, it wouldn't matter because no one is pulling those big ticket items from loot boxes. If you are expecting to get those items from a loot box to make it worth it then you are truly gambling the lottery and dreaming of a fantasy world where everyone wins the lottery. Looking at it from a statistical value, we know the rates to get these items are incredibly like. Like 0.0000001% chance low. A 5T adena item with a 0.0000001% chance statistically increases the average value of a loot box by 5,000 adena. So why do you care what the big ticket items are? They are only there as click bait items. Just like the jackpot items on a slot machine. So, loot boxes have value from the average of the items that you get. I don't usually pay for loot box events because I can't calculate the value of opening a box, but, the one event where I opened 700 boxes, the total value of the items I got was 55% over the going adena/ncoin rate. That event was profitable for me and I only pulled one item worth more than 8b adena and it was only worth 34b adena. I received lots of crap consumables and no big ticket items. Most of the value came from the items in the middle. Is this anecdotal evidence? Yes, but I haven't seen anyone provide any evidence to the contrary. I see so many people complain "all I get is worthless consumables!" but that's an blatant exaggeration. Yes, everyone gets a lot of consumables because the chance to get them is high, but people need to actually post all of what they're getting, calculate the total value of all items received, divide that value by the total NCoin spent and post it to the forum to prove to NCSoft that we're getting screwed. I don't recall ever seeing this happen. If we had a mega thread where people posted what they got and calculated the total value divided by NCoin spent, that would give power to sway events in the right direction. I'm sure NCSoft is just ignoring all the complaints at this point because it's the same complaints every event. This loot box event is probably even better than the average loot box event. There are brand new GK heaven/epic talisman enchants, dragon claws, advanced stable +16 to 18 scrolls, DW augment stones. All highly sought after and will sell easily.

If anything the loot box haul during this event is probably better than other loot box events because there are two rare items in there that won't be super low rates: gran kain heavenly/epic scrolls and cloak +16 to 18 scrolls. The latter will be rare but no where near as rare as god lv3 jewels. Both of these will sell for a lot.

You don't base the value of boxes on of the 0.000000000000001% chance items. You base them on everything you get. Sure, you get a lot of consumables, but you also get other stuff. Saying you only get consumables is a major exaggeration and is not helpful to the discussion. It's basically impossible to know the box value when we don't know the rates. I'm not saying the event is good but we can't say the event is bad without knowing the rates. Buying loot boxes is truly a gamble. What we should be complaining about is their inability to value items. Why is the dragon claws cost 3x the sayha 9 cost? That makes no sense.

Correct, however, FSs still do more front facing damage than adventurers in pve from my calculations comparing the different skills heh

You can't make this comparison. That 216,000 ncoin nets you 1 claw and 300 opened boxes. Saying it costs $2,700 per claw is misleading because you're not including the value of the items from those boxes. I'm not saying that this event isn't bad but it's very hard to judge a box event because we don't know the rates of the items in the boxes. However, considering the dragon claws cost 3x a sayha 9 through cookies though, that does tell you that the rates are out of wack.

1) I guess it's situational but DV for me + my buffer is better XP than a max xp beast farm party, so I'll take the extra hp (which is more than 30k hp for me) to be able to do DV. Plus, in the long run you'll be leaving a lot of HP on the table. Your 30k hp increase will increase as you level and get more gear. 2) I would think the obvious reason is that there aren't many +30 weapons out there due to the difficulty in making them. Also, R110 weapons can be exchanged for higher value bows or cutters. Meanwhile, DWs can't be exchanged so DW daggers cost significantly less than other DWs. 3) You might be right, or might not. The previous and only flood of DWs was during last year's slayer event. We all know how it's going this year. But again, a +30 weapon is a dead end weapon. I'm not planning on quitting anytime soon so I'll stick with the more future proofed and cheaper weapon and spend the significant cost difference elsewhere in the meantime. 4) You're probably right but 99% of the player base can't afford a +30 weapon either. Don't underestimate that 999 element though. With my current gear, that 999 element would boost my damage about 25% by capping element in 124 zones and also allow me to switch element off gear like armor augs for % patk. I should be able to get another ~20% damage that way for a total of around 50% damage. Not to mention the weapon patk increase. I would think that's pretty huge.

Adventurer is the one class that gets a boost to face stabs. See Critical Tactics skill description: "Increases ... Critical Damage from the front and back by 50%". GH and WR get the massive nerf to face stabs.

These are the reasons I use st1 DW dual daggers: 1) A DW is necessary to break the HP cap for higher level zones. I can barely handle DV with a DW but if I was using r110 daggers I'm pretty sure I would die due to the HP cap. 2) Also, stg 1 DW dual daggers are much cheaper than +30 r110. You should be able to make up the damage difference spending the money elsewhere. 3) R110 weapons will likely only lose value over time, DWs have been increasing in value since they dropped to affordable levels last year. 4) DWs are upgradeable, r110 weapons are not. st2 DW dual daggers are far superior to +30 r110 due mostly to the 999 element.

Blood Stab, Chain Blow, and Reverse Mana all have different animations for single and dual daggers for humans. Single dagger animations are all 10x cooler :(. Especially reverse mana with a behind the back spin.

I tested the stab speed of shaper vs dual dagger. In my test I did as many stabs as possible in 60 seconds. The results showed 89 stabs with dual dagger and 90 stabs with single dagger. Therefore, there's no difference skill animation speed.

Why would you say Fortune Seeker is better than Adventurer for pvp?

I don't really expect a response. I'm sure that they know that this event was not a hit. I'm sure they see that their revenue from this event is low when they expected more. It's obvious even to us when the adena/NCoin has dropped from 16 adena/NCoin during a good event down to 12 adena/NCoin looking at current scroll buy/sell values. What I really want is that they see this post and understand why this event failed and the data I provided above shows why. I just really hope that they take a good look at it and are surprised by it. I really don't want to believe that they set the rates from this event with the intent to screw us. I also posted this in the hopes that more people see how bad the value of enchanting dragon slayers is this time around so that less people gamble on enchanting. Even if you have 120 luc and get scrolls for 45m each, you're still going to statistically pay higher than market value for anything on the list. When was the last time an event provided an adena/NCoin value under 12?

I just created a new forum thread showing the value of enchanting based on statistical calculations. Go check it out if you're interested in exactly how bad this event is.

Alright, let’s look at some statistical data regarding this dragon slayer event we have going on. I performed calculations to determine the value of enchanting dragon slayers. After that, I compared this event to last year’s dragon slayer event. ASSUMPTIONS Let’s start with some assumptions for my calculations: 1. Chronos server 2. Using mysterious weapon enchant scrolls (I will discuss greater scrolls further down) 3. Using current enchant scroll cost of 57,000,000 adena/scroll which results in 14.25 adena/ncoin (keep in mind this is lower than recent good events. During the previous event it was around 16,000,000 adena/ncoin.) 4. 120 luc or 10% luc proc chance CALCULATION DATA See the table below for the calculated statistical effective costs: Slayer Enchant Level # of Scrolls Needed* Cost to Enchant (billion adena) Item Market Value (billion adena)** Profit 7 34 2.20 Forgotten Ch1 (x1) 0.9 -144% 8 54 3.44 Historical Tome (x7) 1.75 -97% 9 84 5.37 Dye Crystal (x6) 2.2 -144% 10 131 8.39 Gem Energy (x4) 4 -110% 11 205 13.1 Greater Kaliel 3 -337% 12 320 20.5 Sayha’s Blessing 6 -242% 13 501 32.0 Gold Save Ticket 12 -167% 14 782 50.0 Shiny Gem Energy 50 0 15 1222 78.1 Top Kaliel 50 -56% 16 3304 211 Dragon Claw 100 -111% * Keep in mind that this does not give you a 100% chance. It gives you the statistical amount of scrolls it will take on average. This is a 60 to 70% chance to succeed at least one slayer to a specific enchant level. Sometimes you could succeed more or less. However, over many slayer enchant attempts, it will average out to this many scrolls per slayer enchanted to a specific level. ** Market values are taken from best auction house or sell shops in Giran. Side note: I don’t want to get into the details because it’s complicated but using a greater enchant at enchant level 14 is still not worth it. A top kaliels is not worth much and a greater jewel box is also only worth 100b maximum. Assuming a dragon claw value of 100b results in the weighted average value of 52.2b when the cost to succeed is ~73b. RESULTS I added a column for the profit and you may have noticed that everything is negative. So, as you can tell there is nothing on the list that is even close to worth it except for one item, maybe. Enchanting for almost all items nets you a loss of over half the cost. The one item that might be worth it is the shiny gem energy, but only because there’s no other way to get them and there are none on the market. But I don’t think there is any market demand for shiny gem energies. This is a problem that people have seen with multiple events. It was most obvious during the last night market in October because it is very easy to calculate the value of the items for sale. People were outraged. Almost everything was not worth it. But there is more to this event that makes it much worse than any other event. Let’s compare this event to the slayer event of last year in January. DRAGON SLAYER EVENT 2022 Last year, the dragon slayer event was known to be highly profitable. We did not know for sure what the enchant rates were, however, it was generally accepted that the enchant rate was 70%. Well, luck would have it that I actually have enchant data from that event. I logged 567 enchants (I ignored all luc procs) which resulted in an average enchant chance of 73.9%. That is significantly higher than the 60% we got for this event. But let’s find out how significant that really is. I revised the calculations with the assumed enchant chance of 70%. I don’t have any data for enchanting above 15 but it was generally accepted that 30% was the rate which is the same as it is with the current event so I went with 30%. All other assumptions are the same. The calculation results are below: Slayer Enchant Level Cost to Enchant 2023 (billion adena) Cost to Enchant 2022 (billion adena) 7 2.20 1.48 8 3.44 2.02 9 5.37 2.77 10 8.39 3.80 11 13.1 5.20 12 20.5 7.12 13 32.0 9.76 14 50.0 13.4 15 78.1 18.3 16 211 49.5 As you can see, the cost to enchant to each level was dramatically less last year with only a 10% decrease in the chance. A dragon claw was 1/4 the cost of what it is during the current event. I can only imagine that the NCSoft team decided last year was too profitable, so they decreased the enchant rate, which is understandable. What I can’t imagine is that they just randomly decided a 10% reduction was a good number without doing the calculations (calculations that, including the market research, only took me a couple hours to do). As everyone knows by now, many people were waiting for this event to upgrade to a stage 2 dragon weapon or to make some adena. Increasing the cost by 4x feels like a huge slap in the face. However, there is an even bigger issue here. The biggest issue with this event in my personal opinion is that we were not told that the enchant rates were decreased from last year. We all know that many people spent money on this event thinking it would be just like last year: “yay, dragon claws are +16 slayers again!” only to realize that they are getting barely any slayers out of it after spending hundreds of dollars. By definition, this event “scammed” all of the people who spent money on this event expecting it to be similar to last year’s event. There was no reason for people to believe that it wouldn’t be as good as last year considering the event pages (with the exception that greater enchants were only from opening boxes). Whoever is in charge of determining market values and determining enchant rates for these events should be ashamed of themselves. If anyone at NCSoft would like to see any of the spreadsheet calculations or the 2022 event test data referenced above, feel free to reach out to me. @Hermes @Wissp

I just want to reiterate this so people understand. As Znip said, probability does not work like that. If you fail a 5% chance 149 times, your 150th attempt is still a 5% chance. Each attempt is always a static 5%. If have not started attempting yet and you are going to perform 150 attempts, then you have a 99.95% (1-0.95^150) chance to succeed at least one of those attempts. But again, every individual attempt is still a 5% chance. Note, there are games that progressively increase the odds as you attempt but our version of L2 does not do that. Would be nice, but it doesn't.

For the dragon claw craft, assuming 1B per chest (I know, they're worth more) for simplicity, 16 chests = 16 B per craft attempt. At a 10% chance that means the value of the dragon claw is 160B adena. Yes, quite over priced. And only 10 can be crafted. Doesn't look like there is anything in that list that is anywhere near market prices.

Fantastic post. A lot of great ideas that I haven't heard before. As a fellow dagger user, the hide idea is a fantastic idea for pvp assuming getting hit does not take you out of hide. Maybe it should be 100% evasion to p/m.skills. I haven't really thought this through though.

I actually like this update with mobs being buffed. The first reason is that it forces people to gear up more defensively. However, this does compound the issue that it is very costly to gear up defensively and the options are somewhat limited. Although, the Tersi's soul crystals are a great addition to help gear up defensively for a reasonable cost. The second reason is that it forces many people to party with others to hunt at an equivalent level to before the update. I think most people feel that you shouldn't have to party with someone to hunt in a solo zone and I agree. BUT, you don't have to, you just have to hunt in a lower level zone that you can handle. I think this is a very good thing in the long term. It creates opportunities for the support classes to be useful not just in the party hunting zones. Now, people may be thinking it's not worth it to have someone in party since they take a big chunk of xp. That's not true anymore, the other big change that no one has mentioned yet is that having someone in your party doesn't dramatically reduce xp anymore. Having a second person in your party only reduces your xp by about 9%!! That's awesome! I don't have to feel too bad about the xp loss bringing someone into my party anymore in solo hunting zones! If you get 15% better xp in the next zone up but only lose 9%, you'll still be getting about 5% better xp assuming you kill at the same rate. Therefore, people should likely be hunting with supports even in solo zones to maximize xp potential. This is great for support classes and should create more demand for supports which was very much needed. The only downside to this update that I see is that everyone feels not as strong as they were before. This is a psychological issue in my opinion. I'm not saying it's okay, it's not good to weaken players since the same is about progression. We play video games to feel good and an MMORPG is about progression. Each time you buff the mobs, we lose progress. Theoretically it's fine because you're still progressing and everyone is weaker at the same rate but realistically people don't like it. One more reason that I am all for the buffing of the mobs is that it somewhat equalizes the disparity between AOE characters and single target characters. In my opinion, a level 117 AOE character should not be able to solo AOE the same level TOI as a level 118 single target character. This update caused many AOE characters to drop several TOI levels to survive AOEing. While I understand the hurt that AOE characters feel from this, I think it is a great change. Again, it incentivizes people to play with supports. I'm a single target character so I can't test this but, for example, an AOE character may get better adena with a tank and an iss at a higher TOI level than soloing with just an iss. This update makes situations like this possible. TLDR: Positives: 1. The update forces people to actually think more about defensive gear. It's not just about getting as much damage as possible and ignoring defense anymore. 2. I think this update is great for incentivizing small party play which gives support classes more opportunities. We need more supports! 3. AOE characters are nerfed by not being able to survive. Good. There is still a big disparity between AOE and single target classes, this update balances them a bit. Negatives: 1. We need more defensive gear opportunities. Tersi's soul crystals are a great start. 2. It does not feel good to feel weaker because the mobs got stronger. The game is about progression and everyone was set back. I think the positives significantly outweigh this negative in the long run.

Lilith

I get the exact same error as Ormazd when trying to create a new thread.

Definitely going with Baium here. Many of my good memories of lineage were in that tower. Joebob - Chronos

I feel like this happens to me almost every time I try to reply to a thread. Although, I don't post often. Just happened to me trying to post this. Clicked Submit Reply and nothing happens. Have to refresh the page a few times before it works.