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Itchy

SHAME ON YOU!

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Itchy    42

the hope is that if enough people express themselves in this thread and are in favour of @NcsoftFTWactually doing something about it that NCSoft will, in fact, take notice.

or maybe it doesn't matter to NCSoft that they are losing revenue daily with all the people who are quitting the game in disgust.  if that's the case NCSoft is definitely not in touch with reality.....

~still angry

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Lawman    147
3 hours ago, Sieger said:

This is taken from Wikipedia :

 

Unfortunately Lineage 2 ended up releasing a classic lineage 2 server, in 2018, that was plagued with massive bans on legitimate players from its over tuned auto ban algorithm. The launch of the game feuled an unprecedented frenzy of wide eyed players looking to continue their Lineage 2 adventure. Spending tons of money in the cash shop, only to be banned inappropriately. While watching bots run all over the servers, these victims dealt with an incompetent support and appeals department of NCSOFT which only replied in copy paste responses.

 

GG

 

Come on, you know Wikipedia is updated by the general population and, unless it is challenged so the managers look into it, complete nonsense can stay on Wikipedia forever.  If you'd wanted to, you could have written the above in Wikipedia yourself.  For all I know, you did.  It was clearly written by someone with an axe to grind, probably someone who was improperly banned.  On such issues as this, Wikipedia is no more reliable than this forum.  People can write anything they want there.

That's not to say that much of the above is not true (minus the hysterical language), just that Wikipedia is a thoroughly useless source.

P.S.  The above was originally posted as: Unfortunately Lineage 2 ended up releasing a classic lineage 2 server, in 2018, that was plagued with massive bans on legitimate players from its over tuned auto ban algorithm. The launch of the game feuled an unprecedented frenzy of wide eyed players looking to continue their Lineage 2 adventure. Spending tons of money in the cash shop, only to be banned inappropriately. While watching bots run all over the servers, these victims dealt with the support and appeals department of NCSOFT which was run by one random Brazilian guy who was locked in a facility for criminally insane, learning disabled, Zika victims, with a list of copy paste scripts, and a Parakeet named Philip. Seeing the writing on the wall, and the eventual doom of the classic server, Margaret Krohn jumped ship to join a legitimate gaming company, Intrepid studios.  "

The same author, only identified by his IP address, later cleaned up the highlighted part, but it demonstrates how absurd the Wikipedia content can get.

Edited by Lawman

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Sieger    8
6 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Come on, you know Wikipedia is updated by the general population and, unless it is challenged so the managers look into it, complete nonsense can stay on Wikipedia forever.  If you'd wanted to, you could have written the above in Wikipedia yourself.  For all I know, you did.  It was clearly written by someone with an axe to grind, probably someone who was improperly banned.  On such issues as this, Wikipedia is no more reliable than this forum.  People can write anything they want there.

That's not to say that much of the above is not true (minus the hysterical language), just that Wikipedia is a thoroughly useless source.

Sadly I don't fit in with the trolls at Wikipedia. It is funny though how Lineage 2 is described. Many people take Wiki for a reliable source for many things, that is still a fact.

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Itchy    42
9 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Come on, you know Wikipedia is updated by the general population and, unless it is challenged so the managers look into it, complete nonsense can stay on Wikipedia forever.  If you'd wanted to, you could have written the above in Wikipedia yourself.  For all I know, you did.  It was clearly written by someone with an axe to grind, probably someone who was improperly banned.  On such issues as this, Wikipedia is no more reliable than this forum.  People can write anything they want there.

That's not to say that much of the above is not true (minus the hysterical language), just that Wikipedia is a thoroughly useless source.

i'm curious, is there anything in this review that is blatantly untrue?

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Lawman    147
10 minutes ago, Itchy said:

i'm curious, is there anything in this review that is blatantly untrue?

I honestly don't know, but the language is completely inappropriate.  How do you judge the truth of "massive bans on legitimate players"?  What is massive?  How many legitimate players have been banned?  The author doesn't say and certainly doesn't know. 

Very little of the text is verifiable fact that can be judged "true" or "untrue."  Mostly it's just a rant full of unquantified opinions.  "Frenzy of wide eyed players"?  "tons of money"? "only to be banned inappropriately"?  "victims?"  "incompetent"?  These are judgments and opinions, not facts.

I suppose the only "fact" I'd differ with, and I don't have any real experience in being banned, so I'm not even sure of this, is that the support "only" replied in copy paste responses.  Certainly, most of their responses (perhaps all of their initial responses) are cut and paste, but in every dealing I've had with support (and there have been dozens over 15 years) if I stuck with it and pushed them I eventually got through to a real person with real responses.  I have not have it demonstrated to me that this area is the single exception to that rule.

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Lawman    147
23 minutes ago, Sieger said:

Sadly I don't fit in with the trolls at Wikipedia. It is funny though how Lineage 2 is described. Many people take Wiki for a reliable source for many things, that is still a fact.

It is to laugh.  You don't fit in with them, but you are more than happy to quote them as if they were an objective outside authority.  

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Sieger    8
7 minutes ago, Lawman said:

It is to laugh.  You don't fit in with them, but you are more than happy to quote them as if they were an objective outside authority.  

I think it is very interesting how Lineage 2 is viewed on Wikipedia. Everyone agrees NCsoft is not doing anything remarkable against people violating their EULA. Real players lost their game and what is left is the race to the bottom of who can bot the most and ebay the most.

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Itchy    42
1 hour ago, Lawman said:

I honestly don't know, but the language is completely inappropriate.  How do you judge the truth of "massive bans on legitimate players"?  What is massive?  How many legitimate players have been banned?  The author doesn't say and certainly doesn't know. 

Very little of the text is verifiable fact that can be judged "true" or "untrue."  Mostly it's just a rant full of unquantified opinions.  "Frenzy of wide eyed players"?  "tons of money"? "only to be banned inappropriately"?  "victims?"  "incompetent"?  These are judgments and opinions, not facts.

I suppose the only "fact" I'd differ with, and I don't have any real experience in being banned, so I'm not even sure of this, is that the support "only" replied in copy paste responses.  Certainly, most of their responses (perhaps all of their initial responses) are cut and paste, but in every dealing I've had with support (and there have been dozens over 15 years) if I stuck with it and pushed them I eventually got through to a real person with real responses.  I have not have it demonstrated to me that this area is the single exception to that rule.

regardless of "how much" or "how many" the fact is that there are numerous posts in the forums from quite a number of people who were wrongly banned because of a serious flaw in the security detection system NCSoft had in place.  how many were unbanned?  i don't know.  nor do i know how many were banned in the first place.  but unless a group of people got together and said, hey, let's troll NCSoft and wrong them with this rumour i would tend to believe these things happened.  There are people who did spend various amounts of money which, cumulatively i suppose could amount to "tons."  again, something i would take as fact.  i'm basing this on my knowledge that thousands of people pre-paid for the 30$ starter pack prior to the launch of the classic servers.  thousands of players times 30$ each - i don't math.  but i would translate that as "tons of money," on a cumulative level.

what you call unquantified opinions i would tend to interpret more as factual events that, when put together, create a larger picture of abuses against paying members of this playing community by NCSoft.  if forum posts and personal stories are to be believed, many of these abuses have not been rectified by the company. 

so while i ask you if any of it is untrue, it's obvious Lawman, that you spend a fair bit of time in the forums, i'm sure you've seen as many, if not more of these reports as i have seen. are you saying then that these people are not relaying the truth of their circumstance in the forum?  i asked if you could state any of these things as being blatantly untrue and your response was to tear down the wikipedia review as not being based in fact.

that does not make the wikipedia review any less true in my opinion, having seen as much support for its truth as i have seen in these forums.  maybe i'm not as much of a fact hound as you are but i believe i'm able to see a clear picture here of continued abuses against the L2 playing community by NCSoft in their refusal to support and enforce their own rules.

Furthermore, this thread is about the bots and botting.  is there anything you would like to add to the actual topic?  or is that all without factual basis as well?

thank you for your comments.

Edited by Itchy

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Lawman    147
1 hour ago, Sieger said:

I think it is very interesting how Lineage 2 is viewed on Wikipedia. Everyone agrees NCsoft is not doing anything remarkable against people violating their EULA. Real players lost their game and what is left is the race to the bottom of who can bot the most and ebay the most.

The problem is that someone from NCWest could write on Wikipedia that Classic is perfect in every way and wonderfully received, then quote what they wrote here as "how Lineage 2 is viewed on Wikipedia" with as much authority as you did.  What some emotionally overwrought person wrote on Wikipedia is completely meaningless and there is no point to quoting it here is if it has any meaning.

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Itchy    42
11 minutes ago, Aistis said:

Stop lying that you are not Tolerate botting. let us all purchase bots and play this afk game...

and that viewpoint on this topic will gain us nothing and get us nowhere.  thanks though.

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Lawman    147
1 hour ago, Itchy said:

regardless of "how much" or "how many" the fact is that there are numerous posts in the forums from quite a number of people who were wrongly banned because of a serious flaw in the security detection system NCSoft had in place.  how many were unbanned?  i don't know.  nor do i know how many were banned in the first place.  but unless a group of people got together and said, hey, let's troll NCSoft and wrong them with this rumour i would tend to believe these things happened.  There are people who did spend various amounts of money which, cumulatively i suppose could amount to "tons."  again, something i would take as fact.  i'm basing this on my knowledge that thousands of people pre-paid for the 30$ starter pack prior to the launch of the classic servers.  thousands of players times 30$ each - i don't math.  but i would translate that as "tons of money," on a cumulative level.

what you call unquantified opinions i would tend to interpret more as factual events that, when put together, create a larger picture of abuses against paying members of this playing community by NCSoft.  if forum posts and personal stories are to be believed, many of these abuses have not been rectified by the company. 

so while i ask you if any of it is untrue, it's obvious Lawman, that you spend a fair bit of time in the forums, i'm sure you've seen as many, if not more of these reports as i have seen. are you saying then that these people are not relaying the truth of their circumstance in the forum?  i asked if you could state any of these things as being blatantly untrue and your response was to tear down the wikipedia review as not being based in fact.

that does not make the wikipedia review any less true in my opinion, having seen as much support for its truth as i have seen in these forums.  maybe i'm not as much of a fact hound as you are but i believe i'm able to see a clear picture here of continued abuses against the L2 playing community by NCSoft in their refusal to support and enforce their own rules.

Furthermore, this thread is about the bots and botting.  is there anything you would like to add to the actual topic?  or is that all without factual basis as well?

thank you for your comments.

There were also responses from people claiming that all those who claim to be wrongly banned were lying.  Not from me, btw, since I have no idea who is telling the truth.  Some people even suggested that botters were responsible for the posts, using them in an effort to so completely discredit the bot detection system that it would no longer be used.  Again, I'd never say that, because I have no idea as to the truth.  I only know that in 15 years in this game (including 2-3 months on two of the Classic servers before I went elsewhere) I've never cheated and I've never been banned.  I don't have reason to disbelieve anyone who says they've been unfairly banned, but I don't believe people are being randomly banned.  They may be being banned for the wrong reasons (for example, because their enemies falsely and repeatedly reported them for botting or just because the botting software isn't very intelligent), but I doubt the were banned for no reason.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying the comments in Wikipedia are false.  I'm just saying that most of them are unquantified, not susceptible to true or false conclusions, and hyperbolic (probably a more precise word than hysterical, though that's true, too).  And I'm saying that quoting them here as if they mean something because someone wrote them in Wikipedia is misleading and pointless.

As for botting, I've said repeatedly that for 15 years every NCWest server has been filled with bots and it is no surprise that the Classic ones are as well.  NCWest hasn't done anything effective to combat bots in 15 years.  Why do you think they would start now?  My only quarrel is with the conspiracy theorists who believe NCWest is in cahoots with the botters and RMTers in a scam to make money off of innocent players.  There is not the slightest proof of that.  Someone posted a link to comments from former and present employees about what a terrible working environment NCWest has.  Don't you think if there was a conspiracy one of those unhappy employees would have blown the whistle on the scam? 

Thanks for writing, but I think we've both written sufficient walls of text to make our points, for whatever they are worth.

Edited by Lawman

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Itchy    42
7 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Thanks for writing, but I think we've both written sufficient walls of text to make our points, for whatever they are worth.

is this your polite way of telling me to shush?   :P

the fact remains that with every day that passes the bot population increases. whatever else is going on, that is a fact.  fields that had four or five bots two weeks ago are now covered with bots competing for the same mobs, as many as ten to twelve bots on a small field south of giran, for example. and other fields throughout death pass, hardin's academy, plains of dion and other regions have zero available mobs because the bots are on them before real players can get to them.  find a corner, wait for something to spawn in front of you so you can kill it is the only way you can hunt in some of those areas.

having that many bots continues to be a waste of players' time, continues to be a waste of VIP4 investment, continues to be a high source of frustration when we finally have a chance to sit and relax in front of a game we love this much and can't play because of the conditions.

so no, i'm not going to shush. though i appreciate your effort and your comments.

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Lawman    147
1 hour ago, Itchy said:

is this your polite way of telling me to shush?   :P

Nah, just my way of saying I'm disengaging from the discussion.  I've spent too much time and too many words on this already.  You go right ahead, if you think it's useful.  I don't disagree with you about the bots, just with your optimism that anything will get NCWest to actually do what it takes to put a stop to them (GMs in game searching for bots, resulting perma-bans, and an end to F2P so they have to pay to come back after each ban, make it unprofitable for them).  Hope I'm wrong.  Good luck.

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Sieger    8
8 hours ago, Lawman said:

The problem is that someone from NCWest could write on Wikipedia that Classic is perfect in every way and wonderfully received, then quote what they wrote here as "how Lineage 2 is viewed on Wikipedia" with as much authority as you did.  What some emotionally overwrought person wrote on Wikipedia is completely meaningless and there is no point to quoting it here is if it has any meaning.

Again, this is how Lineage 2 looks on Wikipedia right now and this is how a random person will see Lineage 2. I am not really discussing the validity of Wikipedia. I think we both agree on that Wikipedia is not a reliable source for information. However this is how Lineage 2 is described there and we have to remember that many people use Wikipedia as a source for information. 

Therefore I don't think its meaningsless to qoute here. It could have been a qoute from a New York Times article about Lineage 2 and you could have said that the journalist was biased because he got his account banned etc.

 

 

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Lawman    147
4 hours ago, Sieger said:

Again, this is how Lineage 2 looks on Wikipedia right now and this is how a random person will see Lineage 2. I am not really discussing the validity of Wikipedia. I think we both agree on that Wikipedia is not a reliable source for information. However this is how Lineage 2 is described there and we have to remember that many people use Wikipedia as a source for information. 

Therefore I don't think its meaningsless to qoute here. It could have been a qoute from a New York Times article about Lineage 2 and you could have said that the journalist was biased because he got his account banned etc.

 

 

Okay, but the NY Times would never have printed such a rant without labeling it commentary or opinion.  Better than reprinting the rant here would have been deleting it from Wikipedia.  Even if it were completely true, Wikipedia is not an appropriate place for such overblown rhetoric.  Cheers.

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Itchy    42

Day Four:

Still no official word from NCSoft concerning this topic.  No reply, no response, dead silence.  Shame on you, NCSoft.

Bots continue to cover the fields, mobs continue to be unavailable. 

VIP4 investment continues to be wasted.

Time continues to be wasted looking for anything to hunt in the fields.

Bots continue to run through Dion naked to delevel.

Adena bots continue to spam chat, PM and mail with their ads.

No change anywhere that I can see.

~still angry

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Itchy    42
2 hours ago, CharlieBones said:

bots rule this game unfortunately....  nothing will  ever change for the better in this bleeping game  

as long as NCSoft continues to do nothing about it, i'm afraid you're right.

so @NcsoftFTW when do we get to hear from you?

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Aistis    2

NCWEST : We do not tolerate Boting! 
 Reality : Bots everywhere , the ones been reported running  third week now same cruma spot ^^

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Itchy    42
1 hour ago, Aistis said:

NCWEST : We do not tolerate Boting! 
 Reality : Bots everywhere , the ones been reported running  third week now same cruma spot ^^

Yes, and Cruma Tower is not the only place the bots are rampant.  and yes, people are becoming intolerant of the bots  and no, NCSoft isn't doing anything about it.

This thread was begun with the intent of standing up to NCSoft's poor business policies and lack of rule enforcement, to let them know that we, their paying, playing public are aware of their apathy concerning us, the real people, in favour of the bots.  it is more than obvious that they prefer bots over real people by the way they treat us.  they give us no responses, they give us no recourse, they do nothing to erase the bots and botters from the servers.  i have repeatedly reported bots to no avail.  they are still running rampant in the server.  NCSoft has been told repeatedly about the stream of bots that run through Dion daily to delevel and those bots are still there, streaming through Dion to delevel.  i personally know people who have submitted screenshots, videos, absolute proof of the bots and the bots are still there.

at the same time, real people with real credit cards and real checkbooks are streaming their way out of Lineage II.  there are huge flaws in NCSoft's business models that are creating this exodus of real players.  it just doesn't seem they get it yet, they don't understand what they are doing is poisoning this wonderful game.  would that it could be sold to someone who would manage it properly and give real people the respect we are due because we certainly do not see any respect from @NcsoftFTW.

More bots reported today, some of them the same as have been reported before.  they are still there.  they still fill the fields. they still hamper VIP4 players' ability to hunt. they still waste our money and our time for being handicapped in the filed.

Day four since i first posted comes to a close, and still no response from NCSoft on this issue.  More proof they don't care.  More proof they prefer bots over real people.

it's just a matter of time and that is all they will have.  good luck, NCSoft.  i hope you can recover this situation before you bankrupt the game.

~still angry.

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Itchy    42

Day 5 of this topic begins.

Bots are still rampant throughout the server. no change.

A clan member of mine was given 7-day ban for "anti social behaviour."  WTF?

So someone on the NCStaff is offended by an angry player and gives temporary ban but still does nothing about the real problems?

Still no official reply from @NcsoftFTW concerning the real issues plaguing our game play.  Still no response either public or private.

Ban paying members with VIP status because you don't like something they say but let the bots run wild.  keep those bot dollars rolling in, eh? 

yeah....

~still angry

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Lawman    147

Hi Itchy.  30 years ago, when I was trying to get people in a political debate on a message board to be civil to each other, I used the moniker "Don Quixote."  I cede that title to you.  Keep tilting at those windmills! Hope it does some good.  (Do try to keep it civil, though, the message I was preaching all those years ago :)).  

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SismoS    4

The problem with this game is that NCSOFT has GMs that don't play the game and, thus, are not interested in investigating the problem manually (just go to Hardins Academy, Execution Grounds, Outside Oren, Enchanted Valley etc etc etc and they would ban tonz of accounts). They expect that their system will catch the cheater, but it is easily bypassed. This situation leave us with 3 scenarios:  just let it go and keep playing, quit game or just set up a bot train yourself since it is clear that cheaters don't get banned anyways.

Edited by SismoS
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Lawman    147
5 hours ago, SismoS said:

The problem with this game is that NCSOFT has GMs that don't play the game and, thus, are not interested in investigating the problem manually (just go to Hardins Academy, Execution Grounds, Outside Oren, Enchanted Valley etc etc etc and they would ban tonz of accounts). They expect that their system will catch the cheater, but it is easily bypassed. This situation leave us with 3 scenarios:  just let it go and keep playing, quit game or just set up a bot train yourself since it is clear that cheaters don't get banned anyways.

Which one have you chosen?  For me, I left this version of the game and went elsewhere.

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