SHAME ON YOU!

[Itchy]

Just now, November said:

I am a Leader as well on Gludio. I would have my own morals and ethics when it comes to issues with a transfer to a server like this. Perhaps they could have an option were someone could pay for your character to transfer (gift a transfer). I haven't given it much thought, this is something that I am just putting together on the fly. Perhaps they can have a clan petition system where everyone in your clan must not have a report or something.

the other issue with transferring all members of a clan would be the clan itself.  it takes work and expense to build a clan.  transferring the clan as it is would be a nice option as well so the work wouldn't have to be redone.  just a thought..

 

[Itchy]

well.. it would be easier if you could make one post instead of five but i'll work with it.

are you a witch? i like witches. i just don't like bots.  did you fall on your head when you were born? i wasn't there.. i don't know

if you sell adena you're breaking NCSoft's rules.  the point of this thread is that NCSoft needs to start enforcing its own rules.  it isn't our job to do so.  but the fact that they are NOT in fact enforcing their own rules, go ahead. sell your adena.  you getting banned or not is not my problem.  apparently people are taking notice that NCSoft does not in fact enforce their rules and they're jumping on the bandwagon with botting.  that just increases the angst in the field for people who still play live.  at the rate it's going all live players will quit because of the bot problem and all there will be left is bots.  maybe some bots need more adena so they'll buy adena from the bots who sell it.  maybe they don't so the bots selling adena will go broke.  maybe then there will be nothing left and the servers will die.  it's a shame really because it's a wonderful game. and it's so hard to find really good non-NCSoft servers to play these days. everyone wants instant gratification and high level pvp without having to work for it in those non-NCSoft servers  (saying "private" usually ends up becoming "illegal" in forum vernacular..)

so if you want to sell in-game currency it is your prerogative and consequence. if you get banned for it there is no consequence to me.

p.s. it is an honour being someone's favourite pensioner! 

[Itchy]

Just now, KIttyL1n said:

you are just crying on the forum

we are having a reasonable discussion that so far has remained insult-free. isn't it nice how people are allowed to have different opinions?

[November]

Feels like hes trying to get the thread locked. Or give it a huge post count

[Itchy]

1 minute ago, November said:

Feels like hes trying to get the thread locked.

hopefully NCSoft staff realizes that most of us participating in this thread are enjoying the discussion.  if it gets locked we can start a new one... c'est la vie

[Lawman]

1 hour ago, Itchy said:

and yes, we will have to agree to disagree perhaps on this one topic.  i truly believe if there were no adena sellers in the game these people who would otherwise not cheat at the game would not be buying adena.  it all goes right back to the root of the problem:  @NcsoftFTW's unwillingness to enforce their own rules.

Well, yes, and that dovetails with what I've been thinking about.  Your position strikes me as similar to saying that a nation that has laws against prostitution and drugs should only punish the hookers and pushers, not the johns and addicts.  The position is defensible.  As to the addicts, I even am tempted to agree, but I think drugs and prostitution should be legal so that biases my opinion I guess.  

Sure, if there were no sellers there could be no buyers, by definition.  If there were no hookers and drug sellers there could not be any johns and drug buyers.  It is even certainly possible to pass laws against hooking and drug selling, while making buying the services of a hooker and buying drugs legal.  However, NCWest has not chosen to do this.  Both buying and selling violate their rules.  If you are calling on them to enforce one rule, it seems to me you should call on them to enforce all their rules, including the rule against buying.  And, of course, as long as buying is against their rules, buying is cheating, by definition.  I think that is unarguable.  You can make excuses for it, but it is still cheating.

You could call on them to keep selling illegal but make buying legal, but you haven't done that.  You've asked them to enforce one rule but not another.  I can't help but disagree.

P.S.  I think this is a good time to start ignoring Kitty.  He/she is adding nothing to the conversation except spam. 

[Itchy]

9 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Well, yes, and that dovetails with what I've been thinking about.  Your position strikes me as similar to saying that a nation that has laws against prostitution and drugs should only punish the hookers and pushers, not the johns and addicts.  The position is defensible.  As to the addicts, I even am tempted to agree, but I think drugs and prostitution should be legal so that biases my opinion I guess.  

Sure, if there were no sellers there could be no buyers, by definition.  If there were no hookers and drug sellers there could not be any johns and drug buyers.  It is even certainly possible to pass laws against hooking and drug selling, while making buying the services of a hooker and buying drugs legal.  However, NCWest has not chosen to do this.  Both buying and selling violate their rules.  If you are calling on them to enforce one rule, it seems to me you should call on them to enforce all their rules, including the rule against buying.  And, of course, as long as buying is against their rules, buying is cheating, by definition.  I think that is unarguable.  You can make excuses for it, but it is still cheating.

You could call on them to keep selling illegal but make buying legal, but you haven't done that.  You've asked them to enforce one rule but not another.  I can't help but disagree.

P.S.  I think this is a good time to start ignoring Kitty.  He/she is adding nothing to the conversation except spam. 

(side note: i agree and have stopped replying..)

and you do make a fair point. so yes, NCSoft absolutely should enforce all rules. STARTING with their rules about bots. get rid of the bots you have no buyers. end of story. people who would otherwise be legitimate players have the opportunity to be legitimate players without ban. just get rid of the stupid bots. all of them. in the fields, in the towns, making adena, selling adena.. a bot is a bot. get rid of them.  it really isn't rocket science.  i think i've said that before too...

so okay. i agree to marginally agree with you 

[Itchy]

@KIttyL1n i think it is fair to say that we all know how to play L2.  spamming the thread with your tips may be useful for someone but we do know and understand the game.  thanks for your input.

[Itchy]

49 minutes ago, KIttyL1n said:

well if you know
why are you crying

why are you trolling?  we aren't crying. we are discussing bots and botting. not how to play the game.  i rather thought that was pretty clear.  thanks though

a new thread can be created - in fact, i believe there may be some threads already, about how to play. tips and tricks for doing things right. everyone has their own style of gameplay, one way is not necessarily perfectly better than another.  it's a game, we're here to have fun.  and while this topic is about bots it is also about bots getting in the way of our fun.  please, you are welcome to create your own thread about how to play L2.  this thread, however, is not for that. Happy Hunting!

[Lawman]

5 hours ago, Itchy said:

so okay. i agree to marginally agree with you 

LOL, thank you!  One more point and I'll leave it alone (I hope; never can tell about me).  As I understand it, you are basically say the RMT problem is caused by the sellers and, if you get rid of them, you get rid of the problem.  I think in a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" sense, that states the problem backward.  The demand came first.  The sellers saw a demand and a chance to make a profit by filling it.  So they did.  To them it's just a business deal.  I agree totally with getting rid of the botters and the sellers. To that extent, I agree with you, too.   But I think the blame should fall equally, if not more so, on the buyers.  The answer to dishonesty infecting the game is not just to get rid of temptation, but to get rid of the dishonest, too.  We are all adults here (probably not in the beginning, but certainly now).  Expecting honest people to resist temptation is perhaps unreasonable when they are children.  It is not unreasonable to ask it of adults.  Those who choose to cheat should bear the consequences. 

[Itchy]

26 minutes ago, Lawman said:

 But I think the blame should fall equally, if not more so, on the buyers.  The answer to dishonesty infecting the game is not just to get rid of temptation, but to get rid of the dishonest, too.  We are all adults here (probably not in the beginning, but certainly now).  Expecting honest people to resist temptation is perhaps unreasonable when they are children.  It is not unreasonable to ask it of adults.  Those who choose to cheat should bear the consequences. 

i have been told by people who know me that i tend to lean to the side of optimism when it comes to human nature.  in that regard i want to think the best of everyone.  people doing business are in it for the money. otherwise, what's the point? so i get that.  people playing a game are in it to have fun, right?  i could be wrong, but i want to believe that the majority of the L2 community are there for fun.

where i get hung up is realizing that not everyone views "fun" the same. what is fun for me might not be fun for you, etc.  i mean, i'm having fun doing this thing, aren't you having fun too?  maybe not.  your view of fun could be the thing over there.  i'm trying to improve this outlook, make it a bit more realistic but old habits die hard. 

so i guess, if the botting was legal and fun, i too might engage in it. but it isn't legal and for me there's no fun in watching a game develop itself in auto-mode.  i want to be hands on, i want to push the buttons and make it happen. i want to run away when i need to stay alive. i want to click the buttons and make things with my dorf.  that's me.  someone else might find fun in running a script for the game and going out for the evening to the pub. i don't know. maybe.  the botting obviously started somewhere. 

and yes, of course, someone saw it as a business opportunity. not an entirely honest or ethical one in my opinion, but an opportunity to make money.

chicken-and-egg always creates some amount of turmoil in these kinds of discussions.  the fact is, we really don't know what came first.  in fact, it doesn't really matter at this point.  NCSoft had the rule and it was broken and they didn't work fast enough to fix it when the best opportunity to do so was there.  so L2 became a game of bots.  it's pretty well known throughout the gaming community that L2 is infested with bots and always has been.  it may be irredeemable at this point. it may just be too little too late.  and honestly, that's just incredibly sad.  L2 is the most amazing game out there in my opinion, despite its ancient platform, despite its outdated technology, it still has the best of all worlds.  it's amazingly well thought out and created.  but it's infested with bots.

it would be lovely if NCSoft would be proactive, even if it is late in the game - figuratively speaking - and not the best timing for cleaning up the game.  but i believe if they did many veteran L2 gamers would return to L2.  so many have left because of the bots and imbalances in the economy that they create.  so many people have stated in the forums they are sad to leave but they find the game simply unplayable with the bot disruption in the servers.  am i still here because i'm just a bad habit dummy or because i really do love the game?  maybe some of both, but i can say i do truly love the game.  tried others, they didn't measure up.  i took a 5 year break from L2 and when i couldn't find something to replace it with i played farmville... yeah.  it was that bad.

so i'm rambling now. chicken and egg - creationists believe the chicken and egg were created at the same time.  you know, little bolts of lightning and puffs of smoke, boom, there they were. and god said you, chicken, shall create more eggs.  coulda been two guys over beer somewhere who said, you know, if you good sir were to create a market of adena, we could create a simultaneous market for adena.  and it was begun.  and it wasn't interfered with and the business gods said, this is good.  and one adena sale begat another adena sale which begat another adena sale and pretty soon we had elpies of adena sales rising to the sky.  yes, this is good, they said.  and NCSoft sat by and said, yes, this is too much work for us to deal with.  carry on good fellows.  because that surely had to be NCSoft's response in the beginning or we wouldn't be where we are now.

~stepping off my soapbox..

[Itchy]

no apologies for my lengthy response. it was fun to write

p.s. i still only marginally agree. but i'm having fun doing it   lol

[Krissa]

12 hours ago, Itchy said:

why are you trolling?

Why are you talking to a drunken kid?

[Aurinya]

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