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Its so weird to see so many people blame in game and forums the bots. 95% of the bots are to farm Adena to sell on the market for real money($).
So if they are so many it means someone is keep buying those adena and makes demand.
You all blame an imaginary enemy when the real enemy of the game is its real players itself.
Same story with ppl blaming EA for microtransactions and they made 1billion$ from micro only ifrom Fifa.
You guys are a joke, you deserve the worst from companies and they treat you right. Dont cry

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There are topics and pages and pages and pages and pages of comments and complaints in this forum about NCSoft's management policies concerning their own rules of conduct regarding botting.  Players c

Botting is a business.  Business exists only with customers to buy product.  If all real players leave, business fails.  If no real players buy adena, business fails.  The only people to blame for the

21 minutes ago, MiniPink said:

Its so weird to see so many people blame in game and forums the bots. 95% of the bots are to farm Adena to sell on the market for real money($).
So if they are so many it means someone is keep buying those adena and makes demand.
You all blame an imaginary enemy when the real enemy of the game is its real players itself.
Same story with ppl blaming EA for microtransactions and they made 1billion$ from micro only ifrom Fifa.
You guys are a joke, you deserve the worst from companies and they treat you right. Dont cry

Yet,  you cry about people "crying" bots are the problem, even for people not buying adena! It's FACT not "crying" whining" complaining. Stop being delusional!

Edited by Heavensent
cuz
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11 minutes ago, Heavensent said:

Yet,  you cry about people "crying" bots are the problem, even for people not buying adena! It's FACT not "crying" whining" complaining. Stop being delusional!

The last line of MiniPink's post is especially ridiculous and uncalled for.  But he/she does make a point.  If there were no buyers, there would be no RMT and no bots running just to collect adena to sell (Players using bots to level and collect adena to get ahead in the game are a different matter.  I don't know how many of the bots we see are those cheaters).  I've suggested before that NCWest run a sting operation, in which they pose as RMT sellers and perma ban all the accounts of players who attempted to buy from them.  I doubt it will ever happen because it would take more work than they have time for, but I do think it would help.

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3 hours ago, MiniPink said:

Its so weird to see so many people blame in game and forums the bots. 95% of the bots are to farm Adena to sell on the market for real money($).
So if they are so many it means someone is keep buying those adena and makes demand.
You all blame an imaginary enemy when the real enemy of the game is its real players itself.
Same story with ppl blaming EA for microtransactions and they made 1billion$ from micro only ifrom Fifa.
You guys are a joke, you deserve the worst from companies and they treat you right. Dont cry

you are close to the topic of this discussion, but not quite there.

the actual topic is NCSoft's failure to follow and enfofce their own rules and policies and ban the bots. to make an effort to get rid of them. NCSoft allows them to be there ergo there they are.  yes, there are going to be people who don't want to have to work harder for what they achieve in the game. they will buy adena. they are part of the problem but not the basis of the problem.

this week we start a new xp event.  we'll see how effective it is trying to find places to kill mobs to gain XP around the bots..

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2 hours ago, Itchy said:

you are close to the topic of this discussion, but not quite there.

the actual topic is NCSoft's failure to follow and enfofce their own rules and policies and ban the bots. to make an effort to get rid of them. NCSoft allows them to be there ergo there they are.  yes, there are going to be people who don't want to have to work harder for what they achieve in the game. they will buy adena. they are part of the problem but not the basis of the problem.

this week we start a new xp event.  we'll see how effective it is trying to find places to kill mobs to gain XP around the bots..

Hey now thats not true , they enforce their own rules . My friend pker called BotKiller got banned cauz of "exessive karma and not working on it" see , they do their own rules

Edited by Helloimjohn1
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7 hours ago, Helloimjohn1 said:

Hey now thats not true , they enforce their own rules . My friend pker called BotKiller got banned cauz of "exessive karma and not working on it" see , they do their own rules

could that be called selective reasoning on their part?  seriously?  they care how much karma someone has?  or just because it was a self-proclaimed bot killer?  well.. someone needs to do something, @NcsoftFTW certainly isn't.  tell your friend, well done!  too bad they interfered.  one more feather in NCSoft's cap for not just allowing but condoning bots.

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Day Eight of this thread.

The new XP event has bots out in even stronger force than before.  Many fields completely unplayable by live players.

Six bot reports used over about a four hour time span.  trying to target the same bots every time so their reports accumulate and hopefully will be banned within the next week or so.  trying to work within the limited parameters we live players are given for bot reporting.

Still no response from @NcsoftFTW concerning their efforts to work with players in eliminating the bot population.  i guess it's all up to all y'all and me to keep doing what we can to report.  at some point NCSoft will have to take notice and do something, right?  we can only hope.

one solution to this whole mess, and a way for NCSoft to continue making money, would be to make L2 pay to play again.  while i'm sure there would be some bots willing to pay a monthly subscription their number would be far fewer than what we have now.  I would be willing to pay a subscription to play L2 without all the aggravation.  Would you?

~still angry...

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1 hour ago, Itchy said:

one solution to this whole mess, and a way for NCSoft to continue making money, would be to make L2 pay to play again.  while i'm sure there would be some bots willing to pay a monthly subscription their number would be far fewer than what we have now.  I would be willing to pay a subscription to play L2 without all the aggravation.  Would you?

I've said since it was announced that F2P/P2W was a mistake & would make controlling bots impossible.  But they knew that when they made the decision and I'd be shocked if they changed their minds now.  Good luck.

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2 hours ago, Lawman said:

I've said since it was announced that F2P/P2W was a mistake & would make controlling bots impossible.  But they knew that when they made the decision and I'd be shocked if they changed their minds now.  Good luck.

i'm not claiming this as an original idea.  the first time i read it (somewhere in this forum) i thought to myself, self, this would be a perfect solution if only @NcsoftFTW would do it!  too bad they haven't announced it as a possibility or taken a poll on the subject.  i'm sure a lot of other people would agree as well.

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1 minute ago, November said:

I would be happy with 1 server, no boxes, pay to play. Just saying. 

Why no boxes?  Yes, I know that debate has been done to death on this forum, but especially if the player has to pay for the boxes, why not?  (BTW, I'm firmly in the camp of allowing boxes, mainly because they are a good way to level support characters when cp members are not around.)

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51 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Why no boxes?  Yes, I know that debate has been done to death on this forum, but especially if the player has to pay for the boxes, why not?  (BTW, I'm firmly in the camp of allowing boxes, mainly because they are a good way to level support characters when cp members are not around.)

They devalue that class for mains. instead of allowing boxes, they need to retool classes that are being used as boxes to make them desirable as a main. Not just allow people to box it (this is the lazy solution to the problem).

As for the second part of the question, you shouldn't have to rely on boxing a support. They need to address server pop issues and remove queue's in an effort to solve this. A suggestion would be to slam all the Classic Servers together. Assuming that every server was created equal in terms of hardware and software, then there should be more than enough space for all the players. This will help when it comes to finding that support (did the math close to 10k online across all classic servers). Despite this, till they turn support's into more desirable classes the simplest answer is to allow people to box it (theres a reason people are boxing them and it is because there is a lack of them).

While I am not 100% against boxing, I would prefer it to be removed from the game, though only once server pop issues have been addressed. Till then, I would prefer it stay in the game as it is filling a need.

Edited by November
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it's true that back in the day of P2P people actually played support classes. support classes are integral in pvp and sieges, it's hard to siege with a bunch of support boxes. it would be nice to see some encouragement for live support classes.  i think @November has a good point, reduce server populations to only live playing members and mash us all together in one big happy server. 

which brings up a question, does anyone actually have any idea the ratio of bots to live players on the servers?  i mean, i know it's high on the bot side, but can anyone venture a guess?  what would the community actually look like if there were no bots?  as of right now there are 4400+ logged in on Talking Island server.  of those i'm quite certain less than half are live players.  it could be as low as maybe a quarter of the total numbers logged in. that would be my guess anyway. 

i just got logged into game.. haven't looked around yet at the various fields.  i do not, however, expect anything to be different.  if it is i'll post again later for day nine.....

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7 hours ago, November said:

They devalue that class for mains. instead of allowing boxes, they need to retool classes that are being used as boxes to make them desirable as a main. Not just allow people to box it (this is the lazy solution to the problem).

As for the second part of the question, you shouldn't have to rely on boxing a support. They need to address server pop issues and remove queue's in an effort to solve this. A suggestion would be to slam all the Classic Servers together. Assuming that every server was created equal in terms of hardware and software, then there should be more than enough space for all the players. This will help when it comes to finding that support (did the math close to 10k online across all classic servers). Despite this, till they turn support's into more desirable classes the simplest answer is to allow people to box it (theres a reason people are boxing them and it is because there is a lack of them).

While I am not 100% against boxing, I would prefer it to be removed from the game, though only once server pop issues have been addressed. Till then, I would prefer it stay in the game as it is filling a need.

Thanks for the reply.  The first thing I take issue with is that boxing is lazy.  As someone who 3-boxed in the past & no longer does, I can tell you running a fighter and boxes is not a lazy exercise.  Bots and looping macros, when you are not at keyboard are lazy solutions.  

I'm not sure the servers could be slammed together.  I simply don't know if each has it's own hardware or if they all run on the same hardware.  If each had its own, they couldn't be slammed.  If they are all on the same hardware, it might be possible. 

It always amuses me when people propose solutions like yours that would result in 75% fewer castles (and, therefore, 75% fewer castle-owning clans), 75% fewer heroes, 75% fewer clan halls, 75% fewer raid bosses, 75% fewer hunting areas and mobs, etc.  My guess, and admittedly a pretty wild guess at that, is that more people would abandon the servers in frustration and you'd still end up with the same problems, just with 1/4 the overall population to provide profit (and, therefore, incentive to keep the game going) to NCWest.

Personally, I'd like to see Aden & Gludio merged and a P2P server added.  We'd find out pretty quickly what people want that way.

Some one else also had a suggestion I kind of liked.  If they are determined to make the servers F2P/P2W, then charge a one time account creation fee (similar to the price of buying the game).  Make that fee large enough, and police bots so thoroughly that they couldn't recoup the cost of the buy-in and they would disappear.  There would still be some RMT, with the adena raised legitimately by killing RBs, but that would be reduced, anyway.

Of course, that doesn't fully address those cheaters who use botting and scripts to get ahead in the game, but I suppose that discussion is for another time.    

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22 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Of course, that doesn't fully address those cheaters who use botting and scripts to get ahead in the game, but I suppose that discussion is for another time.    

Speaking of "those cheaters," a trend i've actually been noticing the past few days, seeing more and more "bots" with clan tags and colour titles running around the fields.  KS is perfectly okay with them, they don't care.  not as sophisticated as the other untagged, untitled bots that at least move on if they see a mob being attacked.  what makes them appear to be bots?  repeated KS, no response when spoken to, very directed targets and timing in their hunting patterns.  pretty easy to spot actually.

Day Nine: the struggle continues...

Fields full of bots throughout all the areas that have been previously mentioned.  mobs hard to find, advancement near impossible to achieve.

Time continues to be wasted in the fields looking for places to hunt with available mobs.

VIP status continues to be wasted with few to no mobs available to kill, XP% advantage wasted, drops advantage wasted.

Still no response from NCSoft what they plan to do about the bots, or what they are doing.  what are they doing?

Those people with clan tags and colour titles who are botting... why?  is it a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em?"

The entire server experience continues to be corrupted by @NcsoftFTW's failure to enforce its own rules concerning bots and botting.

Another thing i'm really really curious about!!!  i type fast and i talk a lot.  this almost always results in me chat banning myself for a minute or two several times a day.  How on earth can the adena bots sit in towns and spam spam spam their adena ads and never chat ban themselves?  how is this far?  at least when i'm talking to clan mates or party members what i'm saying is important!!!  just one more way this game is broken...

and have you tried lately to say the word "analogy" in game?  or cocoon? or racoon? or spoon?  the censors are ridiculous in my opinion.  and why only english words that are censored? why not words in other languages that are offensive?  spanish speakers can still insult other people in their language with nasty words that aren't censored. why?

/feeling offended by the inequities in-game....

and...

~still angry

Edited by Itchy
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Those clanned bots are also probably using untagged bots just to raise adena (and maybe pvp scripts and other cheats as well).  Bots are just one of the reasons I left, but I admire your willingness to stay and try to make it work.  Keep tilting at those windmills!

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27 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Thanks for the reply.  The first thing I take issue with is that boxing is lazy.  As someone who 3-boxed in the past & no longer does, I can tell you running a fighter and boxes is not a lazy exercise.  Bots and looping macros, when you are not at keyboard are lazy solutions.  

I'm not sure the servers could be slammed together.  I simply don't know if each has it's own hardware or if they all run on the same hardware.  If each had its own, they couldn't be slammed.  If they are all on the same hardware, it might be possible. 

It always amuses me when people propose solutions like yours that would result in 75% fewer castles (and, therefore, 75% fewer castle-owning clans), 75% fewer heroes, 75% fewer clan halls, 75% fewer raid bosses, 75% fewer hunting areas and mobs, etc.  My guess, and admittedly a pretty wild guess at that, is that more people would abandon the servers in frustration and you'd still end up with the same problems, just with 1/4 the overall population to provide profit (and, therefore, incentive to keep the game going) to NCWest.

Personally, I'd like to see Aden & Gludio merged and a P2P server added.  We'd find out pretty quickly what people want that way.

Some one else also had a suggestion I kind of liked.  If they are determined to make the servers F2P/P2W, then charge a one time account creation fee (similar to the price of buying the game).  Make that fee large enough, and police bots so thoroughly that they couldn't recoup the cost of the buy-in and they would disappear.  There would still be some RMT, with the adena raised legitimately by killing RBs, but that would be reduced, anyway.

Of course, that doesn't fully address those cheaters who use botting and scripts to get ahead in the game, but I suppose that discussion is for another time.    

Howdy, 

I don't mean lazy on the user side, lazy on NC side of things to not create enough incentive for enough people to want to play the class. I do agree with the latter.

I'm not very well educated when it comes to the spec's of servers, so please forgive me ignorance there, though I was operating under the logic you pointed out. If they are similar, which they could very well, that they would be mergable (just a wild guess).

It would only go down by 75% simply because of the none permitted extra clients. Though it makes these undesireable classes more desirable to players. Honestly, I believe you would find clans banding around their members more frequently and that clans become invaluable interms of what they can offer. Having no bots, means finding that book is heavily impactful. A buffer can be game changing under such conditions. Though that's not what we have.

I don't think they need to do another cash grab and add another server, at the very least allow current players to have paid transfer to a server. If not, then start fresh (Frankly it would be a lot of people's last go).

A B2P model would be fine as well, though you still need an active support staff and one that can be effective and timely.

The botting and stuff will be an on going issue, though one that can eventually help be contained. The game doesn't have the population for it to go masked as well as it does. I mean just have 3 people take turns watching parties go none stop for 48 hours with no breaks or w.e. Though yeah, not the convo at hand.

Thanks for the reply ^^

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22 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Those clanned bots are also probably using untagged bots just to raise adena (and maybe pvp scripts and other cheats as well).  Bots are just one of the reasons I left, but I admire your willingness to stay and try to make it work.  Keep tilting at those windmills!

i will quit tilting at windmills eventually.  but strike while the iron is hot, eh?  i'm not going to stop this thread until i get so thoroughly disgusted with NCSoft's hypocrisy that i will leave the game as well. if/when that happens it will be farewell L2 forever.  the thought makes me incredibly sad because i have loved this game for 15 years.  it will be like losing a piece of myself...

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1 hour ago, November said:

It would only go down by 75% simply because of the none permitted extra clients. Though it makes these undesireable classes more desirable to players. Honestly, I believe you would find clans banding around their members more frequently and that clans become invaluable interms of what they can offer. Having no bots, means finding that book is heavily impactful. A buffer can be game changing under such conditions. Though that's not what we have.

I think either I misunderstood you or you misunderstood me.  I was saying all those things would go down by 75% under your suggestion because there would only be one server with one set of castles, heroes, RBs, etc., instead of the four servers with four sets of each that we currently have.

Other than that, I liked your comments.  It's nice to have a reasonable conversation with reasonable people.  That happens all too infrequently in this forum.

P.S.  Those who had the equipment to would box anyway, using 2 or 3 computers as I did back in the day.

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16 minutes ago, Lawman said:

I think either I misunderstood you or you misunderstood me.  I was saying all those things would go down by 75% under your suggestion because there would only be one server with one set of castles, heroes, RBs, etc., instead of the four servers with four sets of each that we currently have.

Other than that, I liked your comments.  It's nice to have a reasonable conversation with reasonable people.  That happens all too infrequently in this forum.

P.S.  Those who had the equipment to would box anyway, using 2 or 3 computers as I did back in the day.

Ah, I thought you were doing the math since logins would be effectively reduced by 66% (thought you were slightly off), though albeit. There would be less of them, making them more important, and more memorable if you ask me.

Like wise ^^, and yeah it does sadly.

Also, I totally understand, though that's better than per comp, if you ask me.

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2 hours ago, November said:

There would be less of them, making them more important, and more memorable if you ask me.

True enough.  But I wonder how many people would rather finish second, third or fourth on a combined server instead of being a hero on one of four servers.  Same with clans who would like to own castles, etc.  I do agree, though, that they would be more important since way harder to get and keep.

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On 1/30/2019 at 8:28 AM, Lawman said:

The last line of MiniPink's post is especially ridiculous and uncalled for.  But he/she does make a point.  If there were no buyers, there would be no RMT and no bots running just to collect adena to sell (Players using bots to level and collect adena to get ahead in the game are a different matter.  I don't know how many of the bots we see are those cheaters).  I've suggested before that NCWest run a sting operation, in which they pose as RMT sellers and perma ban all the accounts of players who attempted to buy from them.  I doubt it will ever happen because it would take more work than they have time for, but I do think it would help.

how did i not see this when you first posted it?  in too much of a hurry i think.

setting up a sting against legitimate players isn't something i can agree with, Lawman.  if you're going to take action against the purchase of adena ban the seller bots.

NCSoft actually did this kind of thing on chronos a couple years ago. a couple of my clan members were caught up in a sting/ban exactly like this for purchasing adena.  i forget the amounts they purchased but it wasn't huge billions at all. a few hundred million if memory serves.

what happened was, they got banned. they were given an opportunity to appeal the ban.  the appeals succeeded and the accounts were restored however the adena they bought and/or the items they bought with the adena they bought had all been deleted from their accounts.  so the 10$ or 20$ they spent on adena was basically flushed down the toilet.

don't blame the players for taking advantage of something that is there. go to the source and cut it off there. ban the adena sellers.  theoretically if you ban the adena sellers repeatedly and make a statement they are not allowed the bots in the field are then working for nothing.  maybe that would make them go away. but i believe they should all be banned. bots in the field, adena sellers... ALL of them.  it is, after all, in the rules of conduct that NCSoft puts out there for us all to follow.  no point having these rules if they aren't going to enforce them.

geez, apologies.. i'm really starting to sound like a broken record here.

i will never agree with any method of punishing the live playing public for the actions of the bots.  the chat restrictions in "live" L2, can't talk to anyone until lvl 76.. is because of the bots spamming chats, PMs, mail with their ads.  NCSoft decided that by restricting the chats the adena sellers had to stop harassing players. however, restricting chats punished the entire playing community.  so someone starts new with L2, can't talk to anyone to get help so they quit.  NCSoft cut off its nose to spite its face with that decision.

earlier today i tried to count all the bots in dion running through to smack mobs, die and delevel.  i counted 37 however i ican't promise those were all unique. some may have been double counted due to the gibberishly similar names they have.  but it was a constant stream of naked or low-grade gear running from the center of dion, up to the gatekeeper then out to the fields on the north side of town.  it was C.O.N.S.T.A.N.T for hours.. some bots i've seen doing thjis at various times have later been spotted at Cruma Marshlands and Pains of Dion. both areas so full of bots they are unplayable by real people.(Pains of Dion was a deliberate misnomer).

so while i've agreed with much of what you've said @Lawman , i can't agree with any action NCSoft must take that would ultimately punish or limit real people playing this game.

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4 hours ago, KIttyL1n said:

mmr 1000 2000 3000 4000 5000 6000 7000 

that's clearer ?

Please accept my apologies in advance @KIttyL1n but i do not understand your posts.  is what you said in any way related to the botting issues on the classic servers?

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9 hours ago, Lawman said:

True enough.  But I wonder how many people would rather finish second, third or fourth on a combined server instead of being a hero on one of four servers.  Same with clans who would like to own castles, etc.  I do agree, though, that they would be more important since way harder to get and keep.

Well, to be honest what does it mean to be hero of a server of few? When you compare it to being hero of a server with a high pop? Frankly the allure of being hero is appealing (more so when you beat 10,000, rather than 300), the importance of it on 4 servers is diluted. Granted having 4 servers open gives you exposure to 4x the problems at 4x the discovery pace (Which they clearly are not ready for). Though, having 4x of everything dilutes it. Also, having someone come in second can be impact-full. Losing hero or by climbing the ranks. etc.

Also all of those things mentioned, happen anyway with 1 server or 4. There will always be losers, unless you want to build an "I just win game".

PS: No one likes losing, though it is part of the game and life.

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3 hours ago, Itchy said:

NCSoft actually did this kind of thing on chronos a couple years ago. a couple of my clan members were caught up in a sting/ban exactly like this for purchasing adena.  i forget the amounts they purchased but it wasn't huge billions at all. a few hundred million if memory serves.

what happened was, they got banned. they were given an opportunity to appeal the ban.  the appeals succeeded and the accounts were restored however the adena they bought and/or the items they bought with the adena they bought had all been deleted from their accounts.  so the 10$ or 20$ they spent on adena was basically flushed down the toilet.

Well, here's an idea... Why not toss up dozens of fake sites via some form of modular template. Do the Sting, though not for perma bans, yet to strike fear. So, people purchase, get a temp ban, lose what they bought, and get back into the game with a do not buy again or we will ban your account. This way, people will no longer have faith in the adena sellers causing fear... Ideally enough so they don't buy, though this kinda goes against some morals and ethics I believe.

4 hours ago, Itchy said:

i will never agree with any method of punishing the live playing public for the actions of the bots.  the chat restrictions in "live" L2, can't talk to anyone until lvl 76.. is because of the bots spamming chats, PMs, mail with their ads.  NCSoft decided that by restricting the chats the adena sellers had to stop harassing players. however, restricting chats punished the entire playing community.  so someone starts new with L2, can't talk to anyone to get help so they quit.  NCSoft cut off its nose to spite its face with that decision.

The problem isn't a one way problem, it is bi-directional (with both botting and adena selling). You have several ways to tackle the problem in my eyes and im sure they have been mentioned countless times. Until both sides of it are address there will be always be a player who wants to buy and someone who wants to sell. Naturally, if there are no sellers, one cannot buy, and if no buyers one cannot sell. 

  1. Adena sellers:
    1. Legalize purchase of Adena through NC Shop
      1. at a severely discounted rate, making it highly dis-favorable for adena sellers to sell 
        1. This will eventually blowup the sever economy, though eventually it will stabilize at a much more inflated rate.
    2. Limit chat restrictions
      1. Highly unfair to the community and honestly the laziest way to delay the problem
    3. Run Scripts in the BG that search for key words and or phrases that auto ban
      1. Can be highly problematic if executed poorly
    4. Live GM
      1. For the love of all that is holy, we need this
    5. Punish Sellers
      1. This needs to be done timely and effectively
    6. Punish Buyers
      1. This needs to be done properly and transparently so that the community knows it isn't accepted nor acceptable
  2. Botters
    1. Legalize botting
      1. No, nope, no sir,
    2. Legalize Looping Macros
      1. See 2.1.1
    3. Ban Botters
      1. Seemingly they are working on it as fast as they can, though from player accounts the bots have a greater force when it comes to account creation than NC does when it comes to banning
      2. Some legit players are going to get caught in the mix, give them a healthy way to provide some form of proof that they were not botting.
      3. Some botters are going to pretend they are legit players, come up with some punishment / redemption system in the bg where GM's can take notes and apply bans over time properly again should these get through the appeal process
    4. Live GM
      1. See 1.4.1
    5. Ban the people selling accounts
      1. Shouldn't be that hard to spot
    6. Ban the people buying accounts
      1. Shouldn't be that hard to spot

Another unrefined alternative which could potentially work would be to open a transfer only server I suppose. Similar to a b2p system. Just a server that at level XX you can transfer to for a one time fee. This way a botter would have to reach a certain level, pay a transfer fee, and managed to not get banned. Should they get banned, they cannot create a toon on the server, it must be transfer etc. 

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