Bring warriors/summoners back to PVP

[Maestro]

Every siege same picture , same classes ... one ,two missing .. archers/feohs/othels/iss/healer/tank/evi .. same pts set -up .. but two classes missing .. tyrrs and summoners .. dont NCSOFT think its time to balance those classes and make them usable in pvp too ? they only boost those classes and it ended up giving burst of 50k-100k-200k+ dmg in pvp while classes like tyrr and summoners hit for 200-300-1k-5k dmg ..thats sad . In a 1 vs 1 scenario you cannot win against those classes as a tyrr you hit for low dmg and get 1-2 shoted back ..

[Yidao]

In the recent update in Korea the damage output of Summoners' servitors was increased. Their defense is still lacking though:
http://boards.rochand.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2123&start=40#p37936

[Maestro]

Yes Elmar but can you agree these classes are excluded from pvp atm ? especially when high pvp burst dmg classes like archers/daggers/feohs kill all 

[Yidao]

I totally agree. One problem here is that many Koreans are not very interested in PvP. Over there a cross-server World Olympiad had to be introduced several updates ago to get any matches at all. The other problem is the huge amount of stat-enhancing items that are being fed into the servers via events and promotions. Every monster of a given variety (Lesser Giant Warrior, Lesser Giant Wizard ...) has the same stats, so it is relatively easy to adjust skills so that a given class can smoothly but not so easily that it would get boring deal with the monsters at a given level. In PvP you have huge differences, even if everybody is 100+, like in Korea. An enchantment on your Retributer of +12 vs. the +4 of your opponent makes all the difference in the world. You simply can't balance that out with improved skills, especially since the Summoner beside you might still be using an overenchanted bow to cast his Marks.

I am afraid we have to face the fact that the excessive amount of high-powered items on the servers in all Territories has driven the game into a dead end where class balancing has become technically impossible.

[mixa]

@Yidao

At NCWest we still got ppl that think they pvp, but it's all windmills....

[weinerthezon]

3 hours ago, Yidao said:

I totally agree. One problem here is that many Koreans are not very interested in PvP. Over there a cross-server World Olympiad had to be introduced several updates ago to get any matches at all. The other problem is the huge amount of stat-enhancing items that are being fed into the servers via events and promotions. Every monster of a given variety (Lesser Giant Warrior, Lesser Giant Wizard ...) has the same stats, so it is relatively easy to adjust skills so that a given class can smoothly but not so easily that it would get boring deal with the monsters at a given level. In PvP you have huge differences, even if everybody is 100+, like in Korea. An enchantment on your Retributer of +12 vs. the +4 of your opponent makes all the difference in the world. You simply can't balance that out with improved skills, especially since the Summoner beside you might still be using an overenchanted bow to cast his Marks.

I am afraid we have to face the fact that the excessive amount of high-powered items on the servers in all Territories has driven the game into a dead end where class balancing has become technically impossible.

I can't speak for warriors, but this is just 1 of a multitude of problems for summoners. I would say your idea that they can't balance the classes is just wrong tho, you always can. Take all the gear away and give people +0 sets and weapons, summoner still isn't viable in pvp. Mainly because our only source of damage is marks, which are easily cleansed, purged, cs, ect. Our main source of damage is intended to be the summons, we are summoners after all. Summon output in pvp is embarrassing at best. I am lucky if those pets crit for 300 someone with equal gear. There is some type of pvp damage reduction on summons in the coding that was never removed, only thing that makes sense lol. Even my summoner whacking a person with a retributer does more damage in pvp with 1/2 summon patk, then my summon does. 

A simple % change for the numbers of ultimate servitor share and Adjusting Sharing Equipment would fix a lot of the issues, most the insane gear is based around crit damage increases and + pvp damage. The issue with this for summoners is only 15% of crit damage is transferred from master to pet and only the Dark Weapon 15% pvp dmg is transferred (Not Cloaks). So if NCsoft released circlets giving 15% p crit dmg, summoners are spending roughly 90b for 2.25% p crit dmg boost. If these stats alone were changed to 100%, summoners would be fixed. Change a 15% to 100% in an already existing skill, make servitor share transfer all pvp/pve boosts (Not just the Weapon) and you just balanced an entire class.

This is just one idea to balance summoners, I could think of another 100 balancing ideas that would be simple to implement. The issue is summoners have been bad for all but 1 chronicle, and people complained so much when summoner was op they nerfed the class to death. Wizards and Archers can AOE 1 shot siege forces, but give a summoner 4 pets and the game is broken! 

[weinerthezon]

Another simple idea to fix summoners,

Since we are mystic type classes why not have summon static damage be based off matk instead of patk? By design we are high int toons, low str, why force us to stack str/patk? The ranged pets literally shoot magic balls of light. Matk should be what determines their damage not patk. We are put in a shitty situation where we have to decide to stack matk for marks and nukes or patk for summon damage. Not possible to do both.

[mixa]

Summoners are broken too, especially the marks.Imho remove the marks at all and ard some actual nukes and curses.

[weinerthezon]

16 minutes ago, mixa said:

Summoners are broken too, especially the marks.Imho remove the marks at all and ard some actual nukes and curses.

Sure has long as the nukes are 800 power AOE nukes and not 150 power....

[Yidao]

1 hour ago, weinerthezon said:

Another simple idea to fix summoners,

Since we are mystic type classes why not have summon static damage be based off matk instead of patk? By design we are high int toons, low str, why force us to stack str/patk? The ranged pets literally shoot magic balls of light. Matk should be what determines their damage not patk. We are put in a shitty situation where we have to decide to stack matk for marks and nukes or patk for summon damage. Not possible to do both.

In the recent update the developers increased the P.Atk. that is transferred from a Staff or Two-Handed Blunt Weapon onto the Servitors from 105% to 120%:
http://lineage2.power.plaync.com/wiki/스킬+개선+3차+업데이트

According to Korean Wynns, this lead, together with the improved Link of Loyalty for more Critical Damage, to a noticeable increase in damage output. The P.Def. and M.Def. of lvl 100+ Servitors was also increased, but according to reports from Korea they are still easily killed. It can't be said that the developers are not working on the problem, but their solutions seem to be unsatisfactory. Don't ask me why they chose 120% for the P.Atk. transfer and not 150% or 200%

[LFactoR]

problem most of ppl on this classes don't want to leave the black credit cards on those classes, they want to hit hard with the less amount of $$

[weinerthezon]

2 hours ago, LFactoR said:

problem most of ppl on this classes don't want to leave the black credit cards on those classes, they want to hit hard with the less amount of $$

That's not true, plenty of superstacked summoners with maxed out credit cards that do no damage.

[Sphryx]

I can easily kill gc lower and superion... but yeah scaling is horrible....

PVP wise = servitors have no dmg at all... AOE skills are ridiculous. NCsoft should rework this class imo.

[SleepingPower]

Summoner  servitors are gods aka killing machines if we compare them with healer servitor.

One question- didn't they used both beast spirit and soul shots on start and was removed with time as to expensive?

I leveled pets in past like wolf and dragon hatchlings  and they used both shoots depend on skill used.

Like wolf can heal and for that use blessed spirishoots., same with star dragon hatchling when attack with magic skill.

Maybe NCSOFT removed blessed beast spiritshots on pets too?

Maybe servitors do less damage for that too?

 

[Xonoveva]

Summoner and Tyrrs weak?

Where these classes are weak, of course, they are not at odds against a certain class for example. But, use as an argument that in the Olympics are seen more Sigel / Feoh / Iss / Archer / Othel and Eviscerator? Depends, Eviscerator is a class that belongs to the universe of Tyrr Warrior for example. Feoh today is the class to beat, after he has gained a skill that is active all the time, where he consumes only mana and absorbs 95% of the damage. Wynn Summoner is a class that deals damage, a class that invokes two strong animals, which these animals have distinct abilities, has a skill that leaves them immune to damage for a few seconds, is a class full of interesting abilities. Wynn Summoner loses more to class than possess many skills of area, like Archer and Feoh for example. The guy there complains that Summoner only has the markings, as if this ability were weak, it's a very powerful ability, and they disappear, where do they go? Even Sigel Knight who still have cubes to remove debuff, is not able to remove Mark easily, these Mark have low reuse, do a huge damage, I have seen a recent Summoner hit 4 Mark followed in an enemy, and burned all CP and half of HP's face. It's a class that basically fights through debuff. For example, only class facing the Wynn Summoner is high damage class, because low damage class like Sigel, Iss and with moderate damage like Healer that can heal, and even the Tyrr Warrior, would have difficulty gaining from a Summoner, however, if you increase the physical defense of the Wynn Summoner and your M. Defense, you can increase his resistance to class with high damage, and increase their disparity against class with low damage... Remembering that Feoh was modified, he gained this alteration in his skill, just so that Feoh could withstand the damage of Othel and Archer, class with high damage, and in doing so, other classes like Sigel, Iss, Healer, Tyrr and even Summoner, they stayed behind against Feoh, so NCsoft has to know how to balance.

[Xonoveva]

14 hours ago, Yidao said:

In the recent update the developers increased the P.Atk. that is transferred from a Staff or Two-Handed Blunt Weapon onto the Servitors from 105% to 120%:
http://lineage2.power.plaync.com/wiki/스킬+개선+3차+업데이트

According to Korean Wynns, this lead, together with the improved Link of Loyalty for more Critical Damage, to a noticeable increase in damage output. The P.Def. and M.Def. of lvl 100+ Servitors was also increased, but according to reports from Korea they are still easily killed. It can't be said that the developers are not working on the problem, but their solutions seem to be unsatisfactory. Don't ask me why they chose 120% for the P.Atk. transfer and not 150% or 200%

I think summoner is too appealing ... A class that invokes animals with extra abilities, NCsoft needs to know how to balance things. Well, the Summoner only takes advantage of Feoh, Othel and Archer, Feoh and Archer because they have damage in very freaky areas, and Othel, due to their ability to release very much Half Kill, but in view of other classes that give low damage or medians, Summoner takes a tremendous advantage, not to mention that it is a class that attacks one at a time. If a Summoner uses items that decreases demage, and critical demage, and by having ability to deal damage with the pet, it becomes a strong class, not to mention that ability to reflect damage, does not affect summoner, since it is a class that deals with debuff.

[Yidao]

With the "Crofin" update on March 28 the developers have expanded on that debuff aspect. The improved Link of Loyalty works basically like the Critical Wound skill of Dagger classes - it places a debuff on your victim which increases its received Critical Damage by 30% (the same amount as Critical Wound), no matter who among the attackers is dealing that damage. This is obviously intended to make Summoners more wanted in parties, but the main use of that  effect will be in dealing with high-Hp monsters, not so much in PvP, where things happen too fast for Wrath to level up to Stage 5, where the effect may (or may not) trigger.

Insofar Maestro's point is still valid - even after the boost brought by "Crofin", Summoners will be at a bit of a disadvantage in PvP.

[mixa]

11 minutes ago, Yidao said:

With the "Crofin" update on March 28 the developers have expanded on that debuff aspect. The improved Link of Loyalty works basically like the Critical Wound skill of Dagger classes - it places a debuff on your victim which increases its received Critical Damage by 30% (the same amount as Critical Wound), no matter who among the attackers is dealing that damage. This is obviously intended to make Summoners more wanted in parties, but the main use of that  effect will be in dealing with high-Hp monsters, not so much in PvP, where things happen too fast for Wrath to level up to Stage 5, where the effect may (or may not) trigger.

Insofar Maestro's point is still valid - even after the boost brought by "Crofin", Summoners will be at a bit of a disadvantage in PvP.

That update is quite "underwhelming", quite a bad response to it.Now as far as I can understand they refer to Summoners and Tyrrs in Korea as literally "useless".That's what they are exactly by the way

[Yidao]

I don't disagree with you there. But what can I say? The developers are aware of the problem, some years ago they even wanted to improve Tyrrs. At that time they suggested that diversifying the Feral Cries (Bear, Hawk) etc. might be a good idea:
http://lineage2.plaync.com/board/letters/recent

Nothing ever came of it, and I suspect that even if they had further pursued that route, it would have been a minor adjustment, like three weeks ago the increase of the transferred Summoner P.Atk. from 105% to 120%.

It's not as if the developers wouldn't try, but somehow their efforts don't lead to a satisfying result. I personally still think that the main problem are the items which "outboost" any skill adjustments the developers might come up with.

[Yidao]

15 hours ago, SleepingPower said:

One question- didn't they used both beast spirit and soul shots on start and was removed with time as to expensive?

I leveled pets in past like wolf and dragon hatchlings  and they used both shoots depend on skill used.

Like wolf can heal and for that use blessed spirishoots., same with star dragon hatchling when attack with magic skill.

Maybe NCSOFT removed blessed beast spiritshots on pets too?

Maybe servitors do less damage for that too?

 

There seems to be some confusion here.

- The Grim Reaper servitor introduced with GoD did and does until today use Beast Soulshots for the single target nukes and and Beast Spiritshots for her AoE skills.

- The new 3rd class type Servitors introduced several updates later use only Beast Soulshots for both single-target attacks and AoE.

- A Wolf can not heal. What you have in mind is probably a Baby Buffalo.

- Blessed Beast Spiritshots have not been removed and can be used for example on a pre-Awakened Soulless for its Corpse Burst, a magical skill.

- Botters don't use Beast Shots on their Servitors and therefore can be easily outdamaged/kill-stolen by a same-level live Summoner. Maestro and the other people in this thread, however,  don't discuss botters but well-equipped Summoners who actually play their characters and can easily afford Shots, especially in PvP.

[SleepingPower]

Yes, my mistake. I had in mind one of dragon hatchlings witch have ability to heal himself and using blessed beast spirit shots it make heals faster and better.

I leveled them long time a go when pets had to do damage to gain xp, stopped after change as is now too much easy.

Thank you for info.

[Quenia]

I wont elaborate on Wynn's current status as I'm really fed up with it. I invested many resources in order to make a stacked PVE summoner when the class got s****t every time based on a -so called- design strategy or lack thereof.

Tyrrs were one of the most interesting class of the game. Actually they are not 1 class but each one has a different play style.

Compared to stacked Feohs/Yulls/Daggers or Evis most tyrrs get outdmged, except maybe in Boss killing. Also there are tyrr classes like Maestro or Duelist that there is no point or fun on playing them atm. Evis (or Ertheias in general) are viable because they introduced and still got game-breaking features.

Concerning parties' setup it is so limited that has become dull. There used to be so many viable setups PVP and PVE wise, when the game was balanced at least.

Nowadays, this game is full of gimmicks , perma hide/rock/immunity/invincibility,  multiple rebirths, god tier dds that crit ~1:1 AOE. What's not to love <3

It is far beyond fixing

PS: Have u ever consider how many ppl will quit if feohs or yulls get smashed?

PS2: Any1 remembers that period where archers couldn't even join open oly and were confined in CB only?

[KissMyKnife]

On 2018. 04. 15. at 7:49 AM, Maestro said:

Every siege same picture , same classes ... one ,two missing .. archers/feohs/othels/iss/healer/tank/evi .. same pts set -up .. but two classes missing .. tyrrs and summoners .. dont NCSOFT think its time to balance those classes and make them usable in pvp too ? they only boost those classes and it ended up giving burst of 50k-100k-200k+ dmg in pvp while classes like tyrr and summoners hit for 200-300-1k-5k dmg ..thats sad . In a 1 vs 1 scenario you cannot win against those classes as a tyrr you hit for low dmg and get 1-2 shoted back ..

First Yull then Feoh then Iss + Tank Now Othell, as a othell, we finally make better damage with br on my Othell was make a short damage test, without br i was make 700k damage to npc, and witb br was 900k so the diff its around 25%, cause the last update was add Patk on stab, so i guessing, next will be summoner as Yidao said, and last will be Tyrr, just wait more, they cant balance all class at once, they focus only 1 class fully, to make good balance.

[Xonoveva]

11 hours ago, KissMyKnife said:

First Yull then Feoh then Iss + Tank Now Othell, as a othell, we finally make better damage with br on my Othell was make a short damage test, without br i was make 700k damage to npc, and witb br was 900k so the diff its around 25%, cause the last update was add Patk on stab, so i guessing, next will be summoner as Yidao said, and last will be Tyrr, just wait more, they cant balance all class at once, they focus only 1 class fully, to make good balance.

God, did they balance the class? Wrong, they made the Feoh gods, making them extremely superior in everything, with that skill that is always activated that absorbs 95% damage, Sigel Knight were great for PVE, but are weak for PVP, even more that his skills mostly limits him , can not use certain skills when it activates some, making the annoying char to control, because it is full of can not, can not do that. Summoner is not weak, he is a DD made for 1 verse 1 and ready, it is not to withstand several attacks at once. Summoner easily throws Sigel, throws Iss easily, he only has difficulty with DD that have a lot of skill in efficient area damage like the Archer for example. Because the Mark are absurd, and the Tyrr Warrior, not all are bad, there are some that stand out.

[Surgical]

On 4/15/2018 at 10:08 AM, weinerthezon said:

That's not true, plenty of superstacked summoners with maxed out credit cards that do no damage.

why would you max out your credit card?