Loot Boxes Illegal Under Belgium Gambling Laws

[Quitted]

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306

I feel really sorry for Tevas.

[Whatif]

 About time , i hope this will happen worldwide )

[CoffeeTime]

I don't understand why you feel sorry for Tevas. He does not even live in Belgium.

About the Random Chance Loot Boxes for $$$ it's about time. It's a Win or Lose scenario equals gambling. So they are right to do so. I would not be suprised rest of EU will follow like the Netherlands. These Micro transactions are hurting the wrong group of Players, especially those who are underaged.

[Quitted]

7 minutes ago, CoffeeTime said:

I would not be suprised rest of EU will follow like the Netherlands.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/04/20/the-netherlands-determines-some-loot-boxes-are-gambling

It isn't my fault Coffee. I know Tevas likes to gamble with the adena he earned with those boxes and i wanted to pm him before spreading the bad new but he seems to be afk and a gm modified the topic's name in the meanwhile.

The topic's name was Draecke will love this one. I tried to pm tevas to talk but when i came back the topic's name was modified.

Fragola talked about this on twitch in her streaming.

[Foxes]

I remember several years ago, i was playing C.O.C (clash of clans), my clan leader (top #1 in local rank in those times) he spend 7k USD in gems, LOL in that crappy game. at least l2 has more development and beauty.

[CoffeeTime]

Quote

the Netherlands Gaming Authority has set a deadline of June 20, 2018 for companies in question to comply, following which it will actively consider enforcement action up to and including fines or a ban.

I hope Lineage 2 will not be banned from playing in my country or else I have to start looking for a New Game soon. It seems most Items offered in Lineage 2 have a real-world value. It's a matter of time they are next on the list.

Bad News. It seems more EU countries are looking into it as we speak. LOL

So, I should start to Abandon Ship, if NCwest don't change Random Loot boxes for $$$?

[beleaua]

32 minutes ago, CoffeeTime said:

Bad News. It seems more EU countries are looking into it as we speak. LOL

No hurry. These news have been there for almost half year (like this article) and nothing has been done, yet. Game publishers in EU, as in the union, still continue to sell rng boxes as we speak and none of them seems to be bothered by it. I doubt very much they will ban the use of L2 in your country, just because they will have to break other rules to do it.

Anyway, I wanted to point out that Belgium is not Netherlands, it's a real country on its own.

[Quitted]

Bro it can't be denied it's everywhere

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/business/loot-boxes-video-games.html

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/text.php?number=HF4460&version=0&session=ls90&session_year=2018&session_number=0

Will add more but first let me talk with Tevas

 

[CoffeeTime]

18 minutes ago, beleaua said:

No hurry. These news have been there for almost half year (like this article) and nothing has been done, yet. Game publishers in EU, as in the union, still continue to sell rng boxes as we speak and none of them seems to be bothered by it. I doubt very much they will ban the use of L2 in your country, just because they will have to break other rules to do it.

Anyway, I wanted to point out that Belgium is not Netherlands, it's a real country on its own.

I did some more digging. It's Official now. You can click for English .PDF-files on the right side of the following link: Dutch Gaming Authority

Deadline is June 20th, 2018 for the Gaming Companies they have already contacted. In this case most likely the biggest whales first such as EA.

It looks bad for me ...

[Quitted]

I'm not able to talk to Tevas I don't know if he's really afk or if he's thinking about a bad joke. It is not.

To many l2 is pvp to others is something else. I know Tevas he's a good fellow and he always liked to gamble and enchanting.

Here's the official belgium ministry of justice speech

https://www.koengeens.be/news/2018/04/25/loot-boxen-in-drie-videogames-in-strijd-met-kansspelwetgeving

By now only 3 videogames were considered against the belgium gambling rules.

It's not about a ban but about 5 years prison and 800.000,00 €. Doubled if minors are involved.

[BurnCycle]

Expect an IP ban on Belgium and Dutch users soon. That's what they probably do until something similar happens in the US. After that they will start giving us the type of events that the Koreans are getting now after the government petition fiasco.

Sad that this game is turning into a casino this days. I hope that every single government take the same actions this governments are taking.

[Dargor]

I very much doubt all EU players will be kicked out as more and more countries change their online gambling laws. It's more likely ncwest will just come up with another way to sell stuff, you know, like companies did since the beginning of time.

[BurnCycle]

6 minutes ago, Dargor said:

I very much doubt all EU players will be kicked out as more and more countries change their online gambling laws. It's more likely ncwest will just come up with another way to sell stuff, you know, like companies did since the beginning of time.

Most likely, while US market is not affected, they will have no problem in banning all the country's that approve the the law. Remember they are not supposed to be the official distributors of the game in Europe.

In Korea they already are shifting the events to less abusing methods. (latest if i'm not mistaken was "a buy some currency and spend on prizes" type of deal) I honestly don't expect to see this kind of deals here cause the abusive way is still allowed and pays way better then less abusive ones.

[Dargor]

3 minutes ago, BurnCycle said:

Most likely, while US market is not affected, they will have no problem in banning all the country's that approve the the law. Remember they are not supposed to be the official distributors of the game in Europe.

In Korea they already are shifting the events to less abusing methods. (latest if i'm not mistaken was "a buy some currency and spend on prizes" type of deal) I honestly don't expect to see this kind of deals here cause the abusive way is still allowed and pays way better then less abusive ones.

However EU players are a rather large part of the already declining community. Removing all of them not only removes the revenue that would be generated by them, it also makes the game much less enjoyable for whoever's left to play, which in turn makes the remaining players less likely to continue spending at the current rate.

[BurnCycle]

5 minutes ago, Dargor said:

However EU players are a rather large part of the already declining community. Removing all of them not only removes the revenue that would be generated by them, it also makes the game much less enjoyable for whoever's left to play, which in turn makes the remaining players less likely to continue spending at the current rate.

They don't need to remove all, just the ones that approve the rule. Remember that NCSoft is not known for smart decisions on this type of matter, for some reason they lost 3 servers worth of people since the game went free to play.  (In this case the hunt for the quick cash costed them more then half of their initial population. Some of them heavy payers too)

 

[beleaua]

10 hours ago, Quitted said:

Bro it can't be denied it's everywhere

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/business/loot-boxes-video-games.html

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/text.php?number=HF4460&version=0&session=ls90&session_year=2018&session_number=0

Will add more but first let me talk with Tevas

 

It looks like the law is not as harsh in the U.S as it is in Belgium. From what I know, different states have different custom laws that don't apply in other states, like California in this case. Even in Minnesota, it doesn't say a ban of gambling boxes for 18+ y/o, just a warning for anyone under 18 y/o.

Quote

A bill introduced in Minnesota on Monday would prohibit the sale of video games with loot boxes to people younger than 18 and require a stern warning: “This game contains a gambling-like mechanism that may promote the development of a gaming disorder that increases the risk of harmful mental or physical health effects, and may expose the user to significant financial risk.”

What will matter in the end is what some of the European countries will do in this case, as a lot of players seems to be from Europe. NC doesn't have publishing rights in Europe, therefore I don't see why would anyone ban them in Europe. As for IP ban, that will go under internet censorship, which is not viewed quite well in EU, unless you want to become the next Turkey or Russia.

[Znipo]

"But the Belgium Gaming Commission has disagreed, instead focusing on whether the loot boxes constitute a "game of chance" - the use of a game element which involves a bet that can by chance lead to profit or loss"

EULA says every game item have 0 value & may not be sold for real-life currency ever, so technically you knowingly spend your money for nothing, there is no profit or loss involved in L2 gambling per-say.

CS:GO & other games are very different, which is the cause of this btw, as those games have actual ingame markets where you can sell your skins/loot for real-life money, in this case you could buy 10 bucks worth of boxes and get 3 cents worth of skins for example.

 

Dont worry though, even if this does become a thing

1. NCWest does not publish this game to EU, Innova does.

2. "US authorities decided that games using loot crates did not constitute gambling because players do get some kind of reward when they acquire the boxes."

 

Question tho, what about..

Card packs, such as pokemon cards, soccer cards etc. all of those come in booster packs with random cards inside = supposed gambling.

Lotteries, free or not, in schools/events..? that is actual gambling.

 

[m0da]

It seems like it started..

If another 2-3 big players from Europe like France, Germany etc. follow, there will be no way back..

And yes European countries can block IPs without an issue.. This has been done in the past with a vast number of online betting sites.. If companies do not abide by one country's law they are easily blacklisted.. Hopefully, if it goes there, the companies will change their policies and not close their games..

[HiccUps]

Selling all items in L2 store - what a novel idea to create a larger base, and not continue with the 'chance' approach.

Unfortunately that will not address: lack of proper oversight, reasonable pricing, and the current imbalance in the game (classes/skills/weapons/etc).

[Cudezic]

"upto 5-years in prison" lol... cant wait NC & Innova people get jailtime hue

 

Belgian Justice Minister department statement on issue: https://www.koengeens.be/news/2018/04/25/loot-boxen-in-drie-videogames-in-strijd-met-kansspelwetgeving

 

edit. Netherlands btw been more progressive on the matter and are already on state where its illegal. Belgians got the decision around a week ago so it still needs abit polishing afaik. Netherlands have actually called for 10 (not NC games but rather more like top10 twitch games) games to remove the predatory lootboxes already or face fines in case they fail to do so.

 

ps. this is being pushed allaround EU now by Belgium and Netherlands and the matter is progressing towards EU wide.

 

the real question is what NCsoft is going to do with Lineage 2 revolution and other money-grab mobile games in EU area as well....

 

 

ps. feel free to report NCsoft to the website I linked - where it has specific emails - in case you feel like L2 etc NC games are in violation of Belgian laws.

[Quitted]

It's a lot more complicated than that.

First of all only 4 games where under judgement aka 500k + users l2 ncwest at its best had 30k, like 8 years ago, and now no more than 5k.

The only thing all those commission need is just a single e-mail from an upset gamer.

Second of all all the litigations about l2 ncwest are ruled by the washington state laws [end user agreement check it out]

Whoever said it's just minnesota well was totally wrong [.pdf link to the washington state bill] --> Washington Senate State Bill

Third but most important of all overwatch had a different set up in china they had to disclousure all the chance rate and the loot boxes could only be purchased by ingame coins [real money for ingame coins -> ingame coins for loot boxes (aka you can get something useful but 99.99% of the time you get pure garbage)] aka ncsoft way of acting or gatcha like this practice is called in japan [gatcha = slotmachines].

Stating that lootboxes are illegal, not matter how, well it's the first nail in the coffin.

Fourth. Oriana's lottery demonstrated that ncsoft already has, like all the other software companies, boxes with ++ armor and weapons but they won't sell them untill someone will buy stones from the l2store to oe armor or weapon. Since 2016 there are boxes with +7 shirts and so on.

58 minutes ago, m0da said:

If another 2-3 big players from Europe like France, Germany etc. follow, there will be no way back..

Germany gambling commission report is expected by the end of may

https://www.pcgamer.com/germany-may-ban-loot-boxes/

Whoeves is couting on uk well uk isn't eu anymore

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/uk_leaves_the_eu

Lol i'm writing like Yidao and it isn't that good

[Yidao]

It is good. I am always thankful for anybody who takes a bit of the research- and posting-load off my shoulders. If we all pitch in, we will make this forum a civilized one yet

[OmenOfSteel]

30 minutes ago, Yidao said:

... we will make this forum a civilized one yet

this might happen only if one of the following things happen first:
- hell freezes over
- Aizen and Quitted marry in RL with all NOVA and MS as bridesmaids
- Conguero and Neutron take enough good decisions to bring L2 back to former glory and make it worth playing again for more ppl than us few nerds that still hang on to this game

[Quitted]

6 hours ago, OmenOfSteel said:

this might happen only if one of the following things happen first:
- hell freezes over
- Aizen and Quitted marry in RL with all NOVA and MS as bridesmaids
- Conguero and Neutron take enough good decisions to bring L2 back to former glory and make it worth playing again for more ppl than us few nerds that still hang on to this game

It will never happen because of 2.

It's more likely that tomorrow conguero will spawn greater jewels for all & for free in chronos aden.

[SleepingPower]

At first look new law that various countries are on way to adopt  seem to have holy aim to suppress development of gambling addiction in young people but I would not take it as only goal.

Is not that they forbid gambling or online casino but companies can obtain licence and ofc pay and operate under another set of rules and fees.

Other than loot boxes L2 Store should have additional warning in item description that items cant be consumed or enjoyed because rules of conduct do not exist to protect consumers and everyone is free to interrupt your gameplay and xp gaining until paid item expire without any gain .