Tyrrs as AoE DDs VS Archer/Feoh

[Jumanji]

I am really interested to some opinions about this matter. I think that a geared Dreadnaught or Titan can do significant AoE dmg with a spear, which does not lack that of Archer or Feoh.

Archer and Feoh have AoE skills with some reuse, even small, while Tyrr hits all the time. Many mobs have resist to half kills, not many have resist to spear. Plus archers dont have any crowd control skills, just dmg. Critical dmg for tyrrs can go much higher than skill crit dmg for Archers.

In Altar, Atelia and other areas a Tyrr can deliver great AoE dmg.

So, why ppl consider Archers and Feohs as "AoE DDs" and not Tyrrs with spear? Is there some other factor i forget or just a stereotype?

Edited August 12, 2018 by Jumanji

[Draecke]

let's make a list:

1. there are many archers & mages, way more then dreads / titans
2. mages are liked cause of snare and their faint stun - doesn't need any gear
3. stacked mages have the above plus good aoe dps
4. 101+ archer with decent gear does alot of aoe dps, stacked archers do insane aoe dps - they can duo altar instance and duo aoe xp elven really fast
5. dreads do not have good dps not even when stacked compared to equally geared mage/archer, titan does but doesn't quite have the same survivability & dps sustainability
6. most important: ppl are lazy and go with is easiest to find to get an XP party going, see first point
7. marketing, you don't find Tyr's on youtube - only stacked mage/archer fraps
8. mob control, any tank can mob control better then Tyr's

this list is serious as I play a stacked Tyrant myself and archers with the same gear as me can kill faster & more mobs at the same time at the moment, there's a nerf incoming for archers that may change all of this so let's see in 2 weeks how that balances out.. same for mages as many mobs get updated with increased resist of their stun debuf.

long story short l2store gear at end game boost certain classes to crazy levels that it removes any kind of class balance as for example Archers were never supposed to be able to AOE dps solo with just an ISS as healer

average parties are defi better off with a Dread / Titan when going for 1+hr XP sessions but yeah perception these days is against it

[Auburn]

1 hour ago, Draecke said:

let's make a list:

1. there are many archers & mages, way more then dreads / titans
2. mages are liked cause of snare and their faint stun - doesn't need any gear
3. stacked mages have the above plus good aoe dps
4. 101+ archer with decent gear does alot of aoe dps, stacked archers do insane aoe dps - they can duo altar instance and duo aoe xp elven really fast
5. dreads do not have good dps not even when stacked compared to equally geared mage/archer, titan does but doesn't quite have the same survivability & dps sustainability
6. most important: ppl are lazy and go with is easiest to find to get an XP party going, see first point
7. marketing, you don't find Tyr's on youtube - only stacked mage/archer fraps
8. mob control, any tank can mob control better then Tyr's

this list is serious as I play a stacked Tyrant myself and archers with the same gear as me can kill faster & more mobs at the same time at the moment, there's a nerf incoming for archers that may change all of this so let's see in 2 weeks how that balances out.. same for mages as many mobs get updated with increased resist of their stun debuf.

long story short l2store gear at end game boost certain classes to crazy levels that it removes any kind of class balance as for example Archers were never supposed to be able to AOE dps solo with just an ISS as healer

average parties are defi better off with a Dread / Titan when going for 1+hr XP sessions but yeah perception these days is against it

+1 to all of this. To add one more thing to the list as well, Archers and Mages hit more mobs per swing then a Titan/Dread/Tyrr can, and Tyrrs aoe skills are terrible for damage, only decent one is Dreadnought 9 stun but the damage still sucks. Archers and mages can hit 20+ mobs with an aoe skill and do millions of total damage. Tyrr doing skills will damage all the same mobs as well but will do about 1/10th the damage if not less. Normal swings he has an advantage on with a pole as feoh and archer require skills, BUT tyrr can only hit 3 or 4 targets at best for 100k+ if you are stacked, the mobs just don't pile up like they need to.

The only exception to this rule I have ever seen is in AF, I know groups that prefer me on my 104 Titan VS. my 102 Archer even though my archer is more stacked than my tyrr. I help the tank survive a little bit better than a Archer could provide. But flip side to that, mobs die 2-3 times faster to my archer, so its a toss up.

[Jumanji]

I have experience from my toon, 104 Titan/102 Archer. Gear is good, almost top for PVE (+10 Bloody set, all epic jewels, shirts, cloak pve, authority circlets, 7s, abu, etc). Skills +10 both classes. Titan build for STR, Archer build for DEX. Dual skill static patk increase. The truth is that when mobs are close, Titan with spear hits more than 10 targets (maybe more in Altar or AF). Apart from my +12 3sa Bloody Slasher, i use Enhanced Shadow Pole for Titan, while Archer has +12 Dark Bow 7/8/Sigel. The pole and the bow could be comparable for PVE.

I think that Titan may be doing more dmg with spear when mobs are close, dps wise. If you know how to use Stun/Knock Down you help the party a lot too.

Of course stacked parties dont need more crowd control than the tank most of the time, they go for higher dps and kill rate. Also, no point comparing a fully stacked char with one that has normal gear. Thats why i compare my main and dual, cause they share gear, while each one has the best setup for the respective class and dual skills are shared.

From my experience, in Altar we go faster when the 4 DDs are Feoh, Yul, Tyrr/Evis, Dagger than when we have 2 Feohs and 2 Yuls. Of course that example does not include the case when top DDs are in party, so the 2 cases are not comparable.

So i guess the conclusion would be that if u have normal ppl in party with average or good gear (not top), the party benefits more from the variety os DDs, cause of the added stacked debuffs and the party solidarity, as well as the variety of dmg. If there is the possibility of changing this combination, i would do it only for adding a very stacked toon whose dmg would overcome all the above.

[Auburn]

15 hours ago, Jumanji said:

I have experience from my toon, 104 Titan/102 Archer. Gear is good, almost top for PVE (+10 Bloody set, all epic jewels, shirts, cloak pve, authority circlets, 7s, abu, etc). Skills +10 both classes. Titan build for STR, Archer build for DEX. Dual skill static patk increase. The truth is that when mobs are close, Titan with spear hits more than 10 targets (maybe more in Altar or AF). Apart from my +12 3sa Bloody Slasher, i use Enhanced Shadow Pole for Titan, while Archer has +12 Dark Bow 7/8/Sigel. The pole and the bow could be comparable for PVE.

I think that Titan may be doing more dmg with spear when mobs are close, dps wise. If you know how to use Stun/Knock Down you help the party a lot too.

Of course stacked parties dont need more crowd control than the tank most of the time, they go for higher dps and kill rate. Also, no point comparing a fully stacked char with one that has normal gear. Thats why i compare my main and dual, cause they share gear, while each one has the best setup for the respective class and dual skills are shared.

From my experience, in Altar we go faster when the 4 DDs are Feoh, Yul, Tyrr/Evis, Dagger than when we have 2 Feohs and 2 Yuls. Of course that example does not include the case when top DDs are in party, so the 2 cases are not comparable.

So i guess the conclusion would be that if u have normal ppl in party with average or good gear (not top), the party benefits more from the variety os DDs, cause of the added stacked debuffs and the party solidarity, as well as the variety of dmg. If there is the possibility of changing this combination, i would do it only for adding a very stacked toon whose dmg would overcome all the above.

I have rarely EVER seen 10 targets hit with a pole unless I'm soloing in AF or LOC and the mobs are all on me, even with tank chain pulls and feoh snare the angles just aren't there to make them effective. 

Alter and AF are going faster with Tyrr/Evis and Dagger because both Yul and Feoh do not do raid damage like Melee DD's do, Hell even daggers out damage both in Raids easily. Even with most TOP DD's a melee in the mix with the ranged AOE will benefit the party.

Normal party I would say play with what you want, if you aren't trying to be the best of the best you aren't going to be xping at the fastest rate anyways. Just play whatever you want to play and whatever play style that you want to, if they won't take you in party because you're a tyrr bleep Them.

[Xentech]

On 12/08/2018 at 7:51 PM, Draecke said:

let's make a list:

1. there are many archers & mages, way more then dreads / titans
2. mages are liked cause of snare and their faint stun - doesn't need any gear
3. stacked mages have the above plus good aoe dps
4. 101+ archer with decent gear does alot of aoe dps, stacked archers do insane aoe dps - they can duo altar instance and duo aoe xp elven really fast
5. dreads do not have good dps not even when stacked compared to equally geared mage/archer, titan does but doesn't quite have the same survivability & dps sustainability
6. most important: ppl are lazy and go with is easiest to find to get an XP party going, see first point
7. marketing, you don't find Tyr's on youtube - only stacked mage/archer fraps
8. mob control, any tank can mob control better then Tyr's

this list is serious as I play a stacked Tyrant myself and archers with the same gear as me can kill faster & more mobs at the same time at the moment, there's a nerf incoming for archers that may change all of this so let's see in 2 weeks how that balances out.. same for mages as many mobs get updated with increased resist of their stun debuf.

long story short l2store gear at end game boost certain classes to crazy levels that it removes any kind of class balance as for example Archers were never supposed to be able to AOE dps solo with just an ISS as healer

average parties are defi better off with a Dread / Titan when going for 1+hr XP sessions but yeah perception these days is against it

Hello, since almost 1 year has passed can you do an update for tyrr dreadnought and other tyrrs in pve, pls. 

[Auburn]

They have gotten better for the number of targets that they can hit but still, the damage gap is too great for them to be able to catch up.