Specific class Skil Dont land on Mobs ( of 4-5 hits 1 land )

[Tazzar]

 Shadow reverse -  on Othell Ghost Hunter  109 lvl  farmin in Aligator Island  and the skill  dont  not landing  on mobs  i did go 104 Phantasmal ridge  5 lvl  lower the same  thing. I change main in Othell Wind Rider and the same thing  with  Easterly Wind Strike skill tis is more lower 5/1  land  on mobs , I spend  adena  to  see if is   gear -  related  or  is the Othell class bleep up .  

Gear - + 10  Blessed exalted armor 

+12 blody 110 dulas dagger 

+ 4 Jewel Opal- red cat-ruby- emerald - diamond

 Legendary  PVe  Cloak +4  

Dragon shirt + 5 

Greater Kaliel +5

Rar accesory pack  +30 day`s

Aghation +7 lion 

Artifact book + 3 

Talisman insanity and seven signs

+ prestige pach subscribe 

I dont think is Gear- Related  but any  one who know somting plz   share u thoughts

  so i will not invest no more in tis dagger class.

[iHyperlite]

shadow reverse funtions as follows:

if you use the skill when the mob is facing you, you will teleport to its rear and stab for max dmg.

if you use it on the rear of the target, it will teleport to the front and stab for about 90-100% less dmg than what i describe above.

if you use on either flank, it will go opposite flank and stab for flank bonus.

 

add all this together with daggers now functioning in a 90/10 worls (90% crit rate starting, 10% no crit = miss on dmg)

 

 

on wind rider, the 2 side step skills also go 90 degrees right or 90 degrees left of current position.  if you use on front or rear, theyre good. if you use on the flank already, you will move to front or rear and stab

 

 

fortune seeker and treaure hunter special stab both are front on stabs with no porting.

[Tazzar]

OK but shadow reverse the skill  description  ( Moves to the target`s  back, that in theory  mean`s  your pozition  dont mater he need to teleport in his back ) not the opposite of where  the toon is standing.  So ok just the skill  not working right.  Thx for info

[iHyperlite]

3 hours ago, Tazzar said:

OK but shadow reverse the skill  description  ( Moves to the target`s  back, that in theory  mean`s  your pozition  dont mater he need to teleport in his back ) not the opposite of where  the toon is standing.  So ok just the skill  not working right.  Thx for info

yes, it says that, but go to an npc and test it.  stand in front, use, it goes back and stabs. use the skill again after, it goes front and stabs for much less damage.

 

the correct description should be: "go opposite side of current target and stab as it does NOT go to the rear every time like shadow chase does.

 

 

as to if the skill is working or not, i personally think it is and it is a translation error from korea (rear vs opposite translation meaning was lost possibly).  other top daggers think it is a bug.  the wind rider skills behave the same way, they go 90 right or left of current position. they do NOT port to the flank every time. I think this is by design on both archtypes.

 

for a GH, use mass trick and always hold agro of your xp spot, if you can, and shadow reverse always works perfectly

[Adding]

@iHyperlite Hi how are you?
I have a question. What should be the best ability points for dagger? (spoiler)

[iHyperlite]

21 minutes ago, Adding said:

@iHyperlite Hi how are you?
I have a question. What should be the best ability points for dagger? (spoiler)

Row 1: 4x Bers Might / 1x Bers Element

Row 2: 3x Bers Craft Foc / 2x Bers Backfire / 3x Bers Focus

Row 3: 3x Bers Craft Death / 3x Bers Death Whisp

Row 4: 2x Bers Battle / 2x Bers Fire / 1x Bers Skill Reduction

Row 5: 2x Bers Binding Attack / 2x Bers Divine Attack

Row 6: 1x Bers Combat Master

 

After those, i add Berserker Mortal / more element / xp sp / more hp as needed

[Rotten]

On 3/27/2022 at 5:20 AM, iHyperlite said:

yes, it says that, but go to an npc and test it.  stand in front, use, it goes back and stabs. use the skill again after, it goes front and stabs for much less damage.

 

the correct description should be: "go opposite side of current target and stab as it does NOT go to the rear every time like shadow chase does.

 

 

as to if the skill is working or not, i personally think it is and it is a translation error from korea (rear vs opposite translation meaning was lost possibly).  other top daggers think it is a bug.  the wind rider skills behave the same way, they go 90 right or left of current position. they do NOT port to the flank every time. I think this is by design on both archtypes.

 

for a GH, use mass trick and always hold agro of your xp spot, if you can, and shadow reverse always works perfectly

Personally I noticed a significant change 2 updates ago. Before that I would say 9/10 stabs landed. 

Now in higher lvl areas it goes in waves... sometimes 2 of 3 stabs land

More often only 2 of 5 stabs land. 

Most affected areas for me at lv 120 where I see this,

TOI 4+, DV, Fafurion, raid bosses. Beast farm, and in most pvp....

[iHyperlite]

23 hours ago, Rotten said:

Personally I noticed a significant change 2 updates ago. Before that I would say 9/10 stabs landed. 

Now in higher lvl areas it goes in waves... sometimes 2 of 3 stabs land

More often only 2 of 5 stabs land. 

Most affected areas for me at lv 120 where I see this,

TOI 4+, DV, Fafurion, raid bosses. Beast farm, and in most pvp....

After the crit cap change for all skill based dds, we also now have a 90% threshold for crits. When we land in the 10%, there in no dmg. I think we start at 90%, and then get reduced from there based on target level and/or their gear.

 

This is very noticeable in pvp, when people have crit rate reduction items on. A dagger must spec skill crit rate for pvp. 

 

In regard to pve, I don't notice it much. If you are on yellow or pink mobs, you may see a bigger miss rate. 

[Rotten]

On 4/7/2022 at 9:37 PM, Rotten said:

Personally I noticed a significant change 2 updates ago. Before that I would say 9/10 stabs landed. 

Now in higher lvl areas it goes in waves... sometimes 2 of 3 stabs land

More often only 2 of 5 stabs land. 

Most affected areas for me at lv 120 where I see this,

TOI 4+, DV, Fafurion, raid bosses. Beast farm, and in most pvp....

Your saying spec with items to increase p.skill crit rate

Or p.atk crit rate

I should send you a video, for me its not 10% in pve on mobs the same lvl is much higher.

And yes in pvp they have way too many items to nerf us in game

[Magla]

On 3/28/2022 at 10:25 PM, iHyperlite said:

Row 1: 4x Bers Might / 1x Bers Element

Row 2: 3x Bers Craft Foc / 2x Bers Backfire / 3x Bers Focus

Row 3: 3x Bers Craft Death / 3x Bers Death Whisp

Row 4: 2x Bers Battle / 2x Bers Fire / 1x Bers Skill Reduction

Row 5: 2x Bers Binding Attack / 2x Bers Divine Attack

Row 6: 1x Bers Combat Master

 

After those, i add Berserker Mortal / more element / xp sp / more hp as needed

You wrong. Now people understand why you so much failing in game. 

This skills set can be for some daggers - if its high lvl - and if have top items.

People who asking here - its low lvl - and not have items. So its different history.

[iHyperlite]

14 hours ago, Magla said:

You wrong. Now people understand why you so much failing in game. 

This skills set can be for some daggers - if its high lvl - and if have top items.

People who asking here - its low lvl - and not have items. So its different history.

Please show what is incorrect about that AP choice then. That is max pve dmg spec for a dagger in AP. 

 

What would you do differently oh wise one?  Rows 1/2/3 are pretty much set. 30 element isn't changing anything for you on row 1. Rows 4/5/6 are also full dmg spec as well.

 

Lvl dif doesn't change the basic mechanics of a dagger. How stats affect dmg is the same regardless of lvl.

 

Instead of coming in here claiming people are wrong, maybe try to post a counter post with info and substance so people don't look at you like a troll. 

[Magla]

On 5/8/2022 at 12:53 PM, iHyperlite said:

Please show what is incorrect about that AP choice then. That is max pve dmg spec for a dagger in AP. 

 

What would you do differently oh wise one?  Rows 1/2/3 are pretty much set. 30 element isn't changing anything for you on row 1. Rows 4/5/6 are also full dmg spec as well.

 

Lvl dif doesn't change the basic mechanics of a dagger. How stats affect dmg is the same regardless of lvl.

 

Instead of coming in here claiming people are wrong, maybe try to post a counter post with info and substance so people don't look at you like a troll. 

OK. I can do that.

1.  "Lvl dif doesn't change the basic mechanics of a dagger. How stats affect dmg is the same regardless of lvl." - you wrong. Low lvl people not have items - and they cant do the same settings. Becouse.. bigest dmg bost = atribute atak (but nor more then need). So for 110lvl mobs need 1370atr, for 112lvl mobs 1520atr, for 116lvl mobs 1820atr. For this reason all small lvl firs must to use atribute 4lvl and from mage line atribute 3lvl (becouse in praktik i never not see no 1 person who have atribute atack 1820! P.atak bonus for all dagers in last place - because p.crit dmg, p.skill. crit dmg and attribute (bot not more then need) - giving bigger bost then p.atack bost.

2.  

Row 1: "4x Bers Might / 1x Bers Element"   ----->might1 element4 + from mage element3

"Row 2: 3x Bers Craft Foc / 2x Bers Backfire / 3x Bers Focus"   -----> ok

"Row 3: 3x Bers Craft Death / 3x Bers Death Whisp"  -----> ok

"Row 4: 2x Bers Battle / 2x Bers Fire / 1x Bers Skill Reduction" ----> +bers blesing  (because no more good skills)

"Row 5: 2x Bers Binding Attack / 2x Bers Divine Attack"   -----> binding not need at all. normaly dager hiting more then mob have hp (so geting overhit aprox all the time)

"Row 6: 1x Bers Combat Master"  ---> ok

Not write post - if you dont know what need for low lvl people. Big lvl not asking here - they know.

[iHyperlite]

19 hours ago, Magla said:

OK. I can do that.

1.  "Lvl dif doesn't change the basic mechanics of a dagger. How stats affect dmg is the same regardless of lvl." - you wrong. Low lvl people not have items - and they cant do the same settings. Becouse.. bigest dmg bost = atribute atak (but nor more then need). So for 110lvl mobs need 1370atr, for 112lvl mobs 1520atr, for 116lvl mobs 1820atr. For this reason all small lvl firs must to use atribute 4lvl and from mage line atribute 3lvl (becouse in praktik i never not see no 1 person who have atribute atack 1820! P.atak bonus for all dagers in last place - because p.crit dmg, p.skill. crit dmg and attribute (bot not more then need) - giving bigger bost then p.atack bost.

I do not believe you understand correctly how stats and element relate to on target damage.  Element can be a MAXIMUM of 24% dmg boost if you are 240 element over your targets resistance level.  If you have 500 element over the target's resistance level, you still only get 24% dmg boost.  There is no negative dmg penalty for being under the mobs element resistance.

To the levels stated:

110 = 1380 element rating for max dmg boost - This means you need a minimum of 1140 atk element to begin adding element to, because 1140 gets 0% dmg bonus.

112 = 1530 element rating for max dmg boost - This means you need a minimum of 1290 atk element to begin adding element to, because 1140 gets 0% dmg bonus.

114 = 1680 element rating for max dmg boost - This means you need a minimum of 1440 atk element to begin adding element to, because 1140 gets 0% dmg bonus.

116 = 1830 element rating for max dmg boost - This means you need a minimum of 1590 atk element to begin adding element to, because 1140 gets 0% dmg bonus.

 

You say you have no clue how to get high element with low lvl, min gear. I 100% agree with you, this is why I DO NOT recommend ever speccing element as a dagger, ever.  It is very difficult to maintain the proper element for a boost without a 999 element weapon.  For this reason, any other stat is better to take bc those stats guarantee dmg in every situation, but just a situational one.

 

Now lets discuss stats.  Stats have a 1:1 ratio on their listed % and the dmg increase on target in %.  For example, as a rule of thumb, one can be safe to view 1% patk = 1 % dmg on target, % p atk crit dmg = 1% dmg on target, 1% p skill crit dmg = 1% dmg on target, 1% p skill power = 1% dmg on target, and 10 element = 1% dmg on target in the correct scenarios.

I have tested this further, with max gear in a very controlled manner to show the following stat relationships:

1% Patk = 0.8530% Dmg on Target

1% Patk Crit Dmg = 0.9431% Dmg on Target

1% P Skill Crit Dmg = 0.9592% Dmg on Target

1% P Skill Power = 1.1147% Dmg on Target

10 Element = 1% Dmg on target (if within 240 element threshold)

 

Now, you speak low end dagger, I assume this is 105 to 110, but then you reference 110-116.  The point about element is its a maximum of 24% dmg boost in the right situation. Most daggers do not reach high element thresholds.  Especially exalted gear daggers who mave have an R99 or R110 +12 pve wep.  They are probably in the 700-900 atk element range, maybe 1k.

 

19 hours ago, Magla said:

2.  

Row 1: "4x Bers Might / 1x Bers Element"   ----->might1 element4 + from mage element3

Row 1 element over patk may help in a very unique situation. But if this dagger is sitting around 800-900, even 1k atk element at lvl 110+, Row 1 element does nothing for you, ever. It literally will not increase any dmg output.  Row 1 Patk will always give dmg output, roughly +3-4% dmg on everything you target.

I never had the proper element for a zone once I was 113+ without using roses etc. Because of this, I built my toon around not needing this stat.  Daggers stack both crit dmg's on their blows, their dmg output on target can be scaled to insane levels if you stack the 3 top stats for othel: p skill power / p atk crit dmg / p skill crit dmg. Patk is added afterwards because it is still damage.

Even if the 40 element applies to give you dmg, you get 4% dmg.  If you apply 4% patk, you will see pretty close to a true 4% in dmg at low and mid lvls.  It makes no sense to take this if you truly care about dmg on target and have to choose between the 2, which as a dagger, you do.

 

19 hours ago, Magla said:

2.  

"Row 4: 2x Bers Battle / 2x Bers Fire / 1x Bers Skill Reduction" ----> +bers blesing  (because no more good skills)

"Row 5: 2x Bers Binding Attack / 2x Bers Divine Attack"   -----> binding not need at all. normaly dager hiting more then mob have hp (so geting overhit aprox all the time)

Berserker Blessing is fine if you have no other dmg increasing AP to take.  That extra % wont matter unless we have an xp event.  Its a wasted opportunity if you can slot more damage for ever situation.

Your comment about Berserker's Binding Attack is just wrong. Immobile Opponent = Shadow Chased / Bluff / Stunned / Etc.  75-80% of the time you are attacking a mob that is immobilized.  You want a 10% dmg boost in that situation.

Even if you consider a party atmosphere, like neutral zone, ketra, etc.  Many tyrs exist who will aoe stun the pack of mobs.  You are typically always hitting an immobilized target in the game, especially in lower and mid levels.  To not take this would be silly for an othel as your dmg is based on having the rear which requires an immobilization debuff. 

 

19 hours ago, Magla said:

Not write post - if you dont know what need for low lvl people. Big lvl not asking here - they know.

Maybe instead of insulting people, you should attempt to have a discussion.  You might educate yourself in the process.

 

 

Also, if anyone wants the tests showing the above stat relationships, join the l2c community discord and go to their #Learnatorium section.  We discuss the game mechanics in depth there and do tests to try and give sense to the way this game works. New players are welcome and encouraged to chat. It is fan run, but the largest community and info resource about this very old game

Link: https://discord.gg/l2community

 

[iHyperlite]

17 minutes ago, iHyperlite said:

To the levels stated:

110 = 1380 element rating for max dmg boost - This means you need a minimum of 1140 atk element to begin adding element to, because 1140 gets 0% dmg bonus.

112 = 1530 element rating for max dmg boost - This means you need a minimum of 1290 atk element to begin adding element to, because 1290 gets 0% dmg bonus.

114 = 1680 element rating for max dmg boost - This means you need a minimum of 1440 atk element to begin adding element to, because 1440 gets 0% dmg bonus.

116 = 1830 element rating for max dmg boost - This means you need a minimum of 1590 atk element to begin adding element to, because 1590 gets 0% dmg bonus.

 

Corrected 1 typo. I wish these forums didn't lock posts for edit so fast @Juji

[Magla]

22 hours ago, iHyperlite said:

I do not believe you understand correctly how stats and element relate to on target damage.  Element can be a MAXIMUM of 24% dmg boost if you are 240 element over your targets resistance level.  If you have 500 element over the target's resistance level, you still only get 24% dmg boost.  There is no negative dmg penalty for being under the mobs element resistance.

To the levels stated:

110 = 1380 element rating for max dmg boost - This means you need a minimum of 1140 atk element to begin adding element to, because 1140 gets 0% dmg bonus.

112 = 1530 element rating for max dmg boost - This means you need a minimum of 1290 atk element to begin adding element to, because 1140 gets 0% dmg bonus.

114 = 1680 element rating for max dmg boost - This means you need a minimum of 1440 atk element to begin adding element to, because 1140 gets 0% dmg bonus.

116 = 1830 element rating for max dmg boost - This means you need a minimum of 1590 atk element to begin adding element to, because 1140 gets 0% dmg bonus.

 

You say you have no clue how to get high element with low lvl, min gear. I 100% agree with you, this is why I DO NOT recommend ever speccing element as a dagger, ever.  It is very difficult to maintain the proper element for a boost without a 999 element weapon.  For this reason, any other stat is better to take bc those stats guarantee dmg in every situation, but just a situational one.

 

Now lets discuss stats.  Stats have a 1:1 ratio on their listed % and the dmg increase on target in %.  For example, as a rule of thumb, one can be safe to view 1% patk = 1 % dmg on target, % p atk crit dmg = 1% dmg on target, 1% p skill crit dmg = 1% dmg on target, 1% p skill power = 1% dmg on target, and 10 element = 1% dmg on target in the correct scenarios.

I have tested this further, with max gear in a very controlled manner to show the following stat relationships:

1% Patk = 0.8530% Dmg on Target

1% Patk Crit Dmg = 0.9431% Dmg on Target

1% P Skill Crit Dmg = 0.9592% Dmg on Target

1% P Skill Power = 1.1147% Dmg on Target

10 Element = 1% Dmg on target (if within 240 element threshold)

 

Now, you speak low end dagger, I assume this is 105 to 110, but then you reference 110-116.  The point about element is its a maximum of 24% dmg boost in the right situation. Most daggers do not reach high element thresholds.  Especially exalted gear daggers who mave have an R99 or R110 +12 pve wep.  They are probably in the 700-900 atk element range, maybe 1k.

 

Row 1 element over patk may help in a very unique situation. But if this dagger is sitting around 800-900, even 1k atk element at lvl 110+, Row 1 element does nothing for you, ever. It literally will not increase any dmg output.  Row 1 Patk will always give dmg output, roughly +3-4% dmg on everything you target.

I never had the proper element for a zone once I was 113+ without using roses etc. Because of this, I built my toon around not needing this stat.  Daggers stack both crit dmg's on their blows, their dmg output on target can be scaled to insane levels if you stack the 3 top stats for othel: p skill power / p atk crit dmg / p skill crit dmg. Patk is added afterwards because it is still damage.

Even if the 40 element applies to give you dmg, you get 4% dmg.  If you apply 4% patk, you will see pretty close to a true 4% in dmg at low and mid lvls.  It makes no sense to take this if you truly care about dmg on target and have to choose between the 2, which as a dagger, you do.

 

Berserker Blessing is fine if you have no other dmg increasing AP to take.  That extra % wont matter unless we have an xp event.  Its a wasted opportunity if you can slot more damage for ever situation.

Your comment about Berserker's Binding Attack is just wrong. Immobile Opponent = Shadow Chased / Bluff / Stunned / Etc.  75-80% of the time you are attacking a mob that is immobilized.  You want a 10% dmg boost in that situation.

Even if you consider a party atmosphere, like neutral zone, ketra, etc.  Many tyrs exist who will aoe stun the pack of mobs.  You are typically always hitting an immobilized target in the game, especially in lower and mid levels.  To not take this would be silly for an othel as your dmg is based on having the rear which requires an immobilization debuff. 

 

Maybe instead of insulting people, you should attempt to have a discussion.  You might educate yourself in the process.

 

 

Also, if anyone wants the tests showing the above stat relationships, join the l2c community discord and go to their #Learnatorium section.  We discuss the game mechanics in depth there and do tests to try and give sense to the way this game works. New players are welcome and encouraged to chat. It is fan run, but the largest community and info resource about this very old game

Link: https://discord.gg/l2community

 

Its hard understand which game you play, and about which game stats and mechanic you talking. Its about WOW or which game?

1. In Lineage 2 not exist nothing about elemental 240. Its 222 and its 25%

2. P.atack boost all the time will give less boost - because of game mechanic. P.atack stat is maked from 2 seperated stats - normal p.atack (class tipe, class type bonus, str, multiplicator and etc) and additional p.atack (some skills, items and etc). All buff effecting just normal p.atak. In the end items, skills (in practice its no difference DB items/skills understand the same) with p.atak boost, buffs - will boost 60-70% of all this p.atack. Resume - 1% p.atack will give all the time less boost.

3. I have clan 8years - or more, helping for new people, enchanting this people items - and i newer not see that someone have  right attribute attack. Newer not see. Im talking about 105-116 lvl people.

4. You cannot make any test in right way, and cannot get right results! For test need admin rights, test server and off random dmg stat!

5. A lot test are maked with admins rights in other lineage 2 servers - and its nothing about what you try to say here  Your imagination its just wrong.

6. I know this group in discord - there no people who talking right things. Most its "jokers". Some maybe "ok".

7. Some years ago I just create 1lvl acc and lvl 1 by 1 lvl - and write all stats changes in exel, buff stats, items and and etc. Its a lot job. In the end I get big excel with dmg calculation. And its show that you are wrong. P.s.: this info i newer not share - because most people in L2 its just RMT traders - the not play l2 for fun.

 

Im not want insult you. I just not like people who doing and talking about what they not understand.

[dersak]

The P.atack story (let  me tell you something in 2014-2016 I quit playing because of lies with tis  game and  with P.atack, I gave a lot of money to make +20 Blessed r 99 dagger. A friend from giuld p / m and told me what are you doing? you throw money at a game  and you don't know what it is  and told me to take the worst possible dagger and that was  a clan Q dagger that had 4-12 damge and see the difference in damage to the monsters in the giant cave .To my amazement i do 300  less damge  with Q 1hand dagger  ON THEM!!  . So from 14 damge queast 1 hand dagger - and  1400-1500 +20 Blasse r99 dual dagger  the difference between the two weapons was 300 damge less  on the mobs 101 lvl and I made a ticket to gm to explain to me THIS, at that time gm were very active on the server. and they said `its work fine` if you don't think so, buy a C or B dagger as little damage as possible and change your top weapon at  farming and see that the differences  when u use skills, on normal attack  its big difrance but skills not  that much. .The Damage you don't do it from P.atack that was to fool you, to throw $$$ at the  window to feel better that you have +++ weapon that  which is worthless  and one naked dude will come with  the` worst possible weapon`  and you slapped 500.000.  damage and laughed. Now the scale its not how it was back in 2014-2016  BUT  the base of scamming  remained .Why not fool people if you can? Invest +++ in the weapons :))  at least  be glad to see the red flame on it.

[iHyperlite]

On 7/20/2022 at 7:26 AM, BeleaMare said:

who are you? and did you spent 1 hour in game on a dager level 100+ with shete gear? due to  Lineage 2 not carying about rmt that control every thing in the game? who are you, to provide what we can read and do copy paste,  from class skill specification, and alterate the  customer's problem. Who why are you allowed to copy paste bol....t?

Please go and play DK feoh yul or any other over powered aoe dd, and leave us to enjoy farming mob by mob. 

P.S. alterating a problem with a copy paste answer, will not help your in game customers, it will make them quit the game, there for a few grand lost for NC Soft. have funn go back to school learn marketing, and learn that on a forum we are here to helpt each other, not copy paste, what we can even read on a skill in game.

....what?

 

[BeleaMare]

People, pleaase  Listen to the Magic God of dagers  yHiperlite, thats why i love this comunity so much, every one does what a : topic Troll does, you do not need  element power from abilites,  maibe after level 110, but i for one i wood only take it if i have spare ability points, Atribut damage you build up from talismans combination, from homunclus from shirt, from tones of items that you use dayli ,  on a dager class most important is atack speed, even if is buged at 1500, chance to land skills, crit. damage and skill crit damage,  That all you can do on a dager, as it is a  dead class you go in batle to die with honor :-), you cant never have survability, on a dager, you might have large Hp but with the costs of Crit damage lost, si try to max out  atack speed, as weapond specification tells you, try to add tones of  P.atack+Crit  damage and skill crit damage, try to make skills +20 power, and , Last : After you incres atack speed and  you get a +10 set like the ones on the site, tell me here please howm many skills you land , And if shadow revers lands or not. I wait for replays or PMS. Dagers like yHiperlaite are beeing raped in olympiad by a noob level 109 , and not only this days , but  back 7-9 years ago