End Game Dagger

[Tbone]

 I am trying to gain a better understanding from the experienced player base.  What is the most well-rounded dagger class if you have end game gear (wishful thinking)? What class tends to be more PVP oriented without sacrificing PVE capability?

 

Is there a big difference between dual vs single dagger. I have read many old posts so just trying to see what the most current thinking is. 

 

I know you post a lot and enjoy your feedback@Hyperlite

[Marcelus]

In pve nothing comes close to the Fortune Seeker, if anyone tells you otherwise that's a lie. They can face stab and still really pump out damage, they lack defensive things in pvp however.

If you want to go best overall dagger pve / pvp go wind rider. They have pretty good damage, and amazing evasion skills. 

They do lower damage than the ghost hunter (when behind) but better overall damage output.

If you want a ranking for daggers they pretty much are as follows.

PVE

1. Fortune Seeker

2. Wind Rider

3. Ghost Hunter

4. Adventurer 

 

PvP

1. Wind Rider

2. Ghost Hunter

3. Fortune Seeker

4. Adventurer

 

[Tbone]

Thanks @Marcelus. I appreciate the feedback. I am currently FS but was just curious on how painful PVE would be if I switched to say WR. I am trying to straddle the best of both options.

What about dual vs single dagger?

[Marcelus]

I think the xp difference was around 24% less when changing from FS to WR tested 2 libras ago so I'm not 100% on the answer to that but roughly in that range.

Dual dagger puts out significantly more damage, single dagger skills have better double time / crit chance. Used to be the later at the very least not so sure if that 2nd part is still true though I do believe it probably is. I personally haven't tested it in a long time. There was also a small skill delay thing going on when you used dual dagger over single but as far as I know that has been resolved so it takes that benefit of the single away.  If I were to give advice I'd go dual for pve and single for pvp if you have the option of both. If its a 1 or other type thing go with dual dagger for sure.

[Ballkain]

If you are even partially set up for pvp you will have no issues any where on any class for pve.  Dual dagger is 5 times better then single, i've tested both +30 and dragon.  I didn't notice any bonus for the single as it did so much more less damage an extra crit here or there isn't gonna make up for the lack of damage.  I play WR and only have played that class.

[Tbone]

Thank you both for the great insight. I lean towards WR but I am worried about giving up my passive 30% PVE damage.  I also like the look of the single dagger  

[Joebob]

Why would you say Fortune Seeker is better than Adventurer for pvp?

[iHyperlite]

On 1/18/2023 at 3:00 PM, Tbone said:

 I am trying to gain a better understanding from the experienced player base.  What is the most well-rounded dagger class if you have end game gear (wishful thinking)? What class tends to be more PVP oriented without sacrificing PVE capability?

 

Is there a big difference between dual vs single dagger. I have read many old posts so just trying to see what the most current thinking is. 

 

I know you post a lot and enjoy your feedback@Hyperlite

 

WR is top PVP dagger, but worst PvE dagger because it nets the lowest stab damage based on how the 2 side steps work.  They port to flank of current position, and flank damage has less bonuses overall on dagger than the rear bonuses. you also can side step to front and rear etc, so it isnt always stabbing flank.

Overall PVE:   FS > GH > TH > WR

this is based on toi income tests as a high gear dagger back at 118ish lvl.  FS made more income than GH which made more than TH which made more than WR.  The WR struggled for me to stay same floor and maintain same stabs required as the other 3 othel types.

If i retested now, with my current gear, they probably wont be much different bc i over stab the health of toi and other places by alot now.  so the lack of dmg on the WR may not be felt now.

i will also note, FS is the only dagger even remotely able to aoe in a pve setting, but the gear required is a bit absurd.

 

Overall PVP:    WR > GH > TH = FS

for the current state of the game, the WR defensive skill is by far the best.  it also stabs very fast and doesnt require a debuff like shadow chase to be on to have dmg.  The GH defensive skill is also very good and more well rounded as it works on mage dmg too.  The TH target loss skill isnt as OP as it used to be and I tend to consider FS and TH about the same in PVP.  The FS receives less crit dmg rate on their passive and the TH has the armor remove thing and target loss.  Theyre both about the same, maybe TH has a slight advantage.

 

fast forward to next update, GH may become top pvp dagger again with this ignore directional penalty buff it gets.

 

For single vs duals, the only difference is in stab land rate.  duals = 80% hard cap to blow land rate.  shaper is 82.5% blow and rate.  skill mastery is identical.  hide when using clones is identical.  skill animations on shaper look cooler, but u loose about 15% dmg using a shaper over duals.  if all i EVER did was pvp, i would use a shaper.  if you ever pve, go duals. 

u need dmg in pve, but dont really miss it in pvp.  the stab land rate is more the issue in pvp, because the 80% cap gets lowered by defensive items.  this is truly the main issue about daggers is missed stabs which doesnt really affect aoe toons.

[Tbone]

@iHyperlite Thanks for all the info. I tried WR -> GH --> and now I am back to a FS. I used stones to change, and hands down FS is just the best from a PVE aspect. Going to stay FS for now and try to get my skills sorted. Thanks for the informative post. 

[Instinctive]

I have play  fs, wr and gh and i have test different set ups these years. I wanna told u that best pve dagger class is fs and best pvp class is gh atm. 

If u open the passive skills each class u will see the difference but if make ur tests u will realize better the difference. A lot ppl tell that dual daggers are best but i will agree only in the pve part in that. Single dagger is best in pvp and in oly. I have test +12 limited dual daggers and +12 limited shaper. Shaper have faster skill animation and if u go back to the enemy the damage is bigger than dual daggers. I have test it with same sa kain 8 x2. Also the vital point seems  to me that work better with shaper. 

Now, for me if u have the adena take dragon shaper since u can put the kain sas in dragon weapons.. Valakas shaper in ghost hunter with good gear and kain x2 death, fire and shillen leave dead bodys.. One shot from back.. The damage is awesome.. Pve is another story and better use dual daggers cause of the auto hunt macros. If u want further advives u can take from lorekraf or divekio.. Are some of the end game daggers in chronos.. 

Thats my experience maybe i am wrong but i think shaper for me rocks... 

[Joebob]

I tested the stab speed of shaper vs dual dagger. In my test I did as many stabs as possible in 60 seconds. The results showed 89 stabs with dual dagger and 90 stabs with single dagger. Therefore, there's no difference skill animation speed.

[iHyperlite]

14 hours ago, Joebob said:

I tested the stab speed of shaper vs dual dagger. In my test I did as many stabs as possible in 60 seconds. The results showed 89 stabs with dual dagger and 90 stabs with single dagger. Therefore, there's no difference skill animation speed.

the difference in speed on the animations is in the miliseconds iirc, and only applies to bloodstab.  some ru test had the exact times long ago.  bloodstab has a different animation for shaper vs duals.

if a difference in speed exists, its for 1 skill only, and the difference is not visible to the naked human eye in a single use atmosphere.  I would imagine you need the actual file data or a very large sample size to compare and reverse into this.  but then, the margin of error in how we collect these tests may very well be the same size as the time difference we are trying to capture.

 

 

edit: the ru data was very old mind you

for now, we know bloodstab has 2 different physical animations based on shaper vs duals.  its the only skill that is up for question on having a difference in speed due to this.  all other stabs are identical shaper vs duals in their animation.

[Joebob]

Blood Stab, Chain Blow, and Reverse Mana all have different animations for single and dual daggers for humans. Single dagger animations are all 10x cooler :(. Especially reverse mana with a behind the back spin.

[iHyperlite]

58 minutes ago, Joebob said:

Blood Stab, Chain Blow, and Reverse Mana all have different animations for single and dual daggers for humans. Single dagger animations are all 10x cooler :(. Especially reverse mana with a behind the back spin.

i am dark elf so i was unaware of the human aspect.  ty for that.

[Tbone]

@iHyperliteand @JoebobI would love to pick your brains with regards to PVP and proper setup. If any of you would be willing to connect it would be much appreciated. For what it's worth I am leaning towards changing to GH when I hit 115 in the next few weeks.  

[Crossmouth]

ill go GH all the way.. based on what I've read, the most balanced Class is a GH, in L2 i believe that 90% of how strong a toon is comes from what items a toon has.

if i were to remake the system i would change the Stat system where every level has a stat point added to be distributed by the player, plus the mix of items we can have in game and skill upgrade. if that happens the game will be more i mean more diverse in terms of stat build, skill items and level. 

but that is a long shot and just a dream of mine. 

again GH for me is well rounded just give it the best items you can get, focus on skill power, skill crit dmg, patk crit dmg. to maximize your stab dmg. 

 

[Ballkain]

On 1/22/2023 at 2:30 PM, Instinctive said:

I have play  fs, wr and gh and i have test different set ups these years. I wanna told u that best pve dagger class is fs and best pvp class is gh atm. 

If u open the passive skills each class u will see the difference but if make ur tests u will realize better the difference. A lot ppl tell that dual daggers are best but i will agree only in the pve part in that. Single dagger is best in pvp and in oly. I have test +12 limited dual daggers and +12 limited shaper. Shaper have faster skill animation and if u go back to the enemy the damage is bigger than dual daggers. I have test it with same sa kain 8 x2. Also the vital point seems  to me that work better with shaper. 

Now, for me if u have the adena take dragon shaper since u can put the kain sas in dragon weapons.. Valakas shaper in ghost hunter with good gear and kain x2 death, fire and shillen leave dead bodys.. One shot from back.. The damage is awesome.. Pve is another story and better use dual daggers cause of the auto hunt macros. If u want further advives u can take from lorekraf or divekio.. Are some of the end game daggers in chronos.. 

Thats my experience maybe i am wrong but i think shaper for me rocks... 

lmao, he has 2 +20 cloaks, Mr D is no where near end game, is just untargetable for ever.  I tested my +30 dual dagger vs +30 single dagger vs single and dual DW, +30 dual all day long was far better.   If you are running kain 8's, not a good test.  I couldn't really tell in pvp as oly is either get conan and get 1 shot or get afk and do the 1 shot for me.  

"But Degus, why are you using dual Lindy" you might ask, well, it looks cooler and 99% of the time the extra damage is over kill.

For the majority of dagger players, pvp is out of their reach and a DW is NOT going to make up the lost ss and pve damage of an oe limited weapon.

[Joebob]

1 hour ago, Ballkain said:

lmao, he has 2 +20 cloaks, Mr D is no where near end game, is just untargetable for ever.  I tested my +30 dual dagger vs +30 single dagger vs single and dual DW, +30 dual all day long was far better.   If you are running kain 8's, not a good test.  I couldn't really tell in pvp as oly is either get conan and get 1 shot or get afk and do the 1 shot for me.  

"But Degus, why are you using dual Lindy" you might ask, well, it looks cooler and 99% of the time the extra damage is over kill.

For the majority of dagger players, pvp is out of their reach and a DW is NOT going to make up the lost ss and pve damage of an oe limited weapon.

These are the reasons I use st1 DW dual daggers:

1) A DW is necessary to break the HP cap for higher level zones. I can barely handle DV with a DW but if I was using r110 daggers I'm pretty sure I would die due to the HP cap. 

2) Also, stg 1 DW dual daggers are much cheaper than +30 r110. You should be able to make up the damage difference spending the money elsewhere.

3) R110 weapons will likely only lose value over time, DWs have been increasing in value since they dropped to affordable levels last year.

4) DWs are upgradeable, r110 weapons are not. st2 DW dual daggers are far superior to +30 r110 due mostly to the 999 element. 

[Marcelus]

On 1/20/2023 at 4:58 PM, Joebob said:

Why would you say Fortune Seeker is better than Adventurer for pvp?

Face stabs on FS work on every other dagger you take massive nerf.

[Ballkain]

I use stage 1, these are the reasons I prefer my +30

1) Breaking the HP cap means nothing to me, I gain maybe 30k extra hp, that is not going to save me from any hits that would of killed me otherwise.  If I am taking damage as a dagger, I am not killing said mobs fast enough.  In pvp, 30k hp is irrelevant, talkin pve here.  I don't hunt DV as you need 3 in party and once the xp is split, didn't seem worth it.

2) Stage 1 are much cheaper then +30, imo there is an obvious reason for that.

3) IDK id DW will continue to increase in value as the only income NC gets is selling those, so I wouldn't be surprised to see another flood.

4) 99% of player base will not upgrade a stage 1 DW, at this point, I won't, and I spend a lot on this addiction.  In pvp that 999 element will be boss, but you're not gonn notice it in pve.

not trying to start arguments, just giving people other ways of lookin at things.

[Marcelus]

GH is only good with a tank in grp and 90% of people xp without tanks now, show me a gh pumping out more damage than a wr in pve without a tank you must be crazy.

[Marcelus]

Sorry have a massive hard time replying here I keep getting forum bans for telling gm's they dont do their job.

[Ballkain]

I play 99% alone, wish I had tank friends to compare, maybe that's why my opinion is so different, hmmmm

[Joebob]

3 hours ago, Marcelus said:

Face stabs on FS work on every other dagger you take massive nerf.

Adventurer is the one class that gets a boost to face stabs. See Critical Tactics skill description: "Increases ... Critical Damage from the front and back by 50%". GH and WR get the massive nerf to face stabs.

[Joebob]

4 hours ago, Ballkain said:

I use stage 1, these are the reasons I prefer my +30

1) Breaking the HP cap means nothing to me, I gain maybe 30k extra hp, that is not going to save me from any hits that would of killed me otherwise.  If I am taking damage as a dagger, I am not killing said mobs fast enough.  In pvp, 30k hp is irrelevant, talkin pve here.  I don't hunt DV as you need 3 in party and once the xp is split, didn't seem worth it.

2) Stage 1 are much cheaper then +30, imo there is an obvious reason for that.

3) IDK id DW will continue to increase in value as the only income NC gets is selling those, so I wouldn't be surprised to see another flood.

4) 99% of player base will not upgrade a stage 1 DW, at this point, I won't, and I spend a lot on this addiction.  In pvp that 999 element will be boss, but you're not gonn notice it in pve.

not trying to start arguments, just giving people other ways of lookin at things.

1) I guess it's situational but DV for me + my buffer is better XP than a max xp beast farm party, so I'll take the extra hp (which is more than 30k hp for me) to be able to do DV. Plus, in the long run you'll be leaving a lot of HP on the table. Your 30k hp increase will increase as you level and get more gear.

2) I would think the obvious reason is that there aren't many +30 weapons out there due to the difficulty in making them. Also, R110 weapons can be exchanged for higher value bows or cutters. Meanwhile, DWs can't be exchanged so DW daggers cost significantly less than other DWs.

3) You might be right, or might not. The previous and only flood of DWs was during last year's slayer event. We all know how it's going this year. But again, a +30 weapon is a dead end weapon. I'm not planning on quitting anytime soon so I'll stick with the more future proofed and cheaper weapon and spend the significant cost difference elsewhere in the meantime.

4) You're probably right but 99% of the player base can't afford a +30 weapon either. Don't underestimate that 999 element though. With my current gear, that 999 element would boost my damage about 25% by capping element in 124 zones and also allow me to switch element off gear like armor augs for % patk. I should be able to get another ~20% damage that way for a total of around 50% damage. Not to mention the weapon patk increase. I would think that's pretty huge.