Class "Revamp" – Sigel Knight

[Feedlee]

 

2 hours ago, Draecke said:

to clarify that ranking only applies to those tanks that participate in Oly and/or PVP

for PVE obviously there's no PVP gear aspect and Mdef is way less a factor then Pdef

pve wise you are right

[WarriorOfLight]

 

Hi guys, I was reading your considerations. I love tank :-)))). I have main PK 102 for cp pve and dual HK for exp / faction in soloing. I have set + 8 bloody, weapon bloody 3 SA hp ++++, tattoos + 15 CON, etc..etc .. and arrival without rose to 103k HP in main. Skill dual i have light of protection and 6% hp. Do you recommend putting 24% hp?

[Irlumir]

2 hours ago, WarriorOfLight said:

 

Hi guys, I was reading your considerations. I love tank :-)))). I have main PK 102 for cp pve and dual HK for exp / faction in soloing. I have set + 8 bloody, weapon bloody 3 SA hp ++++, tattoos + 15 CON, etc..etc .. and arrival without rose to 103k HP in main. Skill dual i have light of protection and 6% hp. Do you recommend putting 24% hp?

 

Hi. Not happy with your current dual class skill? For Pve i do find HP better. Now if u use COV i think will be a waste cause with current setup + rose + cov/pow i think you will be very close to CAP. If you dont use COV  then go and try for HP. With similar setup i found HP better for pve. Overall more surv.

I dont like to use COV anymore cause it will be deleted soon, and will be absurd to get use to it and rely on it, cause in a couple of months will be gone. 

The best thing is to test for yourself and see what apply best for your current gear. Some like better pdef, mdef, and with strong gear for sure can be a really good option, specially for pvp, when you will not have Healer dedicated on you as on Pve ( the more HP the more efficient and stronger Heal can be on you).  But for pve, as seems to be your focus, maximize HP, i think,  is the best option, with your gear. If you do it with COV + Rose, or with dual + rose who  it does not mather. If you use the COV way for sure can have more options to boost other things, just remember that path will be gone soon.

 

Cheers

[Keoz]

It's been a nice discussion, but we have be clear in saying that we can only speak about 'builds' when there are decisions or paths to take. Such decisions exist only in APs, Dual Skills and Dyes, because one option negates the other. Maybe skill enchanting too.

If we say: "Insanity or Longing" or "+8 Set or +10 Set" or "4SA Wep vs 2SA Wep" or "28k PDef vs 50k PDef", the question is not 'should I?' but 'can I?' (Or do I have enough money/adena/ressources)

Some of the answers we give at the beggining have to do with the order in a path, in which you have to decide what to get first to function well or improve. Irlumir nailed the point before.

 

Having said that, the input from Katrise is very interesting, more in the direction of the most stacked way of setting a tank and using another tricks like old buffs, but interesting nonetheless. Such tips must be applied taking into account everyone's own gear.

[Murkan]

On 19/03/2018 at 11:27 AM, Keoz said:

It's been a nice discussion, but we have be clear in saying that we can only speak about 'builds' when there are decisions or paths to take. Such decisions exist only in APs, Dual Skills and Dyes, because one option negates the other. Maybe skill enchanting too.

If we say: "Insanity or Longing" or "+8 Set or +10 Set" or "4SA Wep vs 2SA Wep" or "28k PDef vs 50k PDef", the question is not 'should I?' but 'can I?' (Or do I have enough money/adena/ressources)

Some of the answers we give at the beggining have to do with the order in a path, in which you have to decide what to get first to function well or improve. Irlumir nailed the point before.

 

Having said that, the input from Katrise is very interesting, more in the direction of the most stacked way of setting a tank and using another tricks like old buffs, but interesting nonetheless. Such tips must be applied taking into account everyone's own gear.

Good Afternoon (Using Google Translate)

When we analyze a class, we can not simply analyze it from the point of view, the items that potentiate it as a whole. For me, we analyze a class equipping the class with a set +4, with its jewels, without being boss, and its weapon +4, covers, shirt +4 and etc. We forget aside items that are tricky to achieve, as the game comes more and more, becoming commercial to the point of looking like these pirate games, where everything is sold and if you want, pay for it. Boss jewels are more complicated to have because the servers are comined by some clans, depending on the server, like Freya, only one clan dominates, only they have access to everything the game offers, boss, instanceas and etc.

 

In my humble opinion, the Sigel Knight was good on the PVE and weak on the PVP of 1 versus 1 and when the person says it looks good, they are people who are on a high level of equipment. Which does not test the class itself, using only simple equipment where everyone has access. I say, rather, I dealt better with Feoh, Summoner, Archer, Tyrr, but I dealt better with Summoner and Feoh. Today is more complicated, are Reise Shield and Focus Shield interesting skills? They are, but they have restrictions, that is, if they use skills that depend on the shield, they will disappear if we use Final Ultimate Defense, which for me, should not even have this name, as it is in my opinion the worst skill currently of Sigel Knight , where I using it, I took 83k of damage from a Feoh, even with the Final Ultimate Defense enabled, I did not see limiting any damage there near the 600, since it's lvl 100. So I believe that a class like Sigel Knight where his greatest skill is the use of shield, and NCsoft put restrictions precisely in this area, is what makes the bad class to play. NCsoft simply made clear to the player the following: You will have to remember the restrictions all the time, we limit your class and accept and that's it.

 

I do not see these limitations in any other class, whether in Feoh, Tyrr, Othell, Archer, Healer, Iss, all these classes can combo their abilities and fully extract their potency. Example: Feoh was potentialized with the game, making the skill that was once a buff, in active skill, which absorbs the damage by 95% and the 5% will directly affect the HP of the class, I understood that this was to make the Feoh more competitive against Archer, Othell and Tyrr, but to NCsoft at no time, thought that, that would make other class fragile in a fight in the olympics against the Feoh. Remembering, I am always analyzing fight 1 vs 1 in Olympics. So the other class can use their full potential without these restrictions they put on Sigel Knight. Feoh has skill that leaves him immune, does not take damage, has skill that lifts you in the air and gets you high damage, has this skill that absorbs 95% of damage. Othell the same, Archer too, can make multiple combos without their abilities being disabled. Summoner is a privileged class in 1 vs 1, mainly in lvl 101. Grab strong Summons, with strong abilities to take down, has summon cubico that removes debuff, shares damages with the summons, they have 4 Marks that when they take the 4, their HP descends like water, and worse, marks are skills that fail a few times. It has a skill that leaves you invulnerable, without taking damage, which loads super fast. However, it is abilities created for the class to withstand DDs. But, that affect weak damage class, such as Sigel, Iss for example. And these restrictions limit Sigel, it is enough the absurd amount of items that NCsoft created and made available, which diminishes the reflected returns, Sigel before, always withstand the damages and kills in reflects, and here comes NCsoft and creates many items so the DD does not have all the damage back. Destroying the Sigel class. So, it improved on PVE, but it got worse on PVP solo, since Massa PVP, Sigel can handle, because Healer has healing. Reise Shield, Focus Shield are interesting but do not use stun poses, I can not use Shield Boomerang aggression to add effect, if I use Reise Shield and Focus Shield and use Shield Wave the Shield Wave buff does not appear, if I use Final UD, I can not use Focus Shield and Reise Shield, it's a lot of restriction, not to mention that 3 seconds of Vanishing Stun, silence is a bit too much, and it's not always 3 seconds, second only for the duration. In short, a lot of restraints, I challenge NCsoft to make changes to the other class and create various skills that are also full of constraints, but, it will never do that, because NCsoft has always had huge protection with DDs in general, and always disregarded class support . I showed to a friend of mine, who plays WOW, a pvp, and I called a friend of mine, a Feoh with normal equipment, no boss and nothing jewelry, and when he saw Feoh's high damage, even me using Focus Shield, and then Final UD, he laughed too much, because in the MMORPG he played, he said: Tanker always gave weak damage, but tanker would never take high damage as it does in Lineage 2.

[Irlumir]

3 hours ago, Murkan said:

Google Translated bla bla

You return  

Olympiad is a place for high end gear. You may have some fun with mid gear. THe gear you mention +4 armor  is been naked. THe least is a +8 armor, thats is like low mid gear, with some diamond/pear lvl 3- 4 , abundance lvl 1, etc, some obsidian lvl 3-4, and so on,.... minimum requirements to enter oly.
At least you start to see things better, tank is good on pve jaja. 

http://lineage2.plaync.com/board/update/view?articleId=633189  well here you can see that koreans hear your QQ and will change some mechanics with raise / focus shield.

See explanation on that link. 

Sigel is fine. and UD also works very good. 
For mass pvp , focus shield is the perma thing ON most of the time.....

Oly ... is whose wallet is strongest!! jaja... but sigel has good chances  (against equally geared chars) v/s Tyr, Othel, Healer, Yul in Oly. Feoh are soso but not imposible, Iss well easier than before but still so so.. 

I think the weakest char in oly is Tyr by far. 

 

[WarriorOfLight]

On 15/3/2018 at 5:03 PM, Irlumir said:

 

Hi. Not happy with your current dual class skill? For Pve i do find HP better. Now if u use COV i think will be a waste cause with current setup + rose + cov/pow i think you will be very close to CAP. If you dont use COV  then go and try for HP. With similar setup i found HP better for pve. Overall more surv.

I dont like to use COV anymore cause it will be deleted soon, and will be absurd to get use to it and rely on it, cause in a couple of months will be gone. 

The best thing is to test for yourself and see what apply best for your current gear. Some like better pdef, mdef, and with strong gear for sure can be a really good option, specially for pvp, when you will not have Healer dedicated on you as on Pve ( the more HP the more efficient and stronger Heal can be on you).  But for pve, as seems to be your focus, maximize HP, i think,  is the best option, with your gear. If you do it with COV + Rose, or with dual + rose who  it does not mather. If you use the COV way for sure can have more options to boost other things, just remember that path will be gone soon.

 

Cheers

with my dual skill I feel good, but maybe with ++ hp it's better? I try to change, this is the game. thanks irlumir for your discussion.

[WarriorOfLight]

also I think that the tank is now better than before. I managed to reach 108k pdef with all the active skills,(raise shield, buf cat, light of protection dual skill), I had never seen it before salvation

[WarriorOfLight]

3 hours ago, WarriorOfLight said:

also I think that the tank is now better than before. I managed to reach 108k pdef with all the active skills,(raise shield, buf cat, light of protection dual skill), I had never seen it before salvation

 

[Norbit]

Hey peeps. Sry for the late responce. Ok heres where the numbers come from. I built my tank for pure survival. So im gonna start at my base. When not buffed. Only my aura and cubic going i stand at 21k pdef. Ok when fully buffed with rose barrier and knights 2 i go up to 41k. Ok gear is a consideration here. I only have lvl 3 jewels. I run full boss jewels. Got a tailisman lvl 10 from AF. And i run 1 fort tailisman. Sometimes pdef, mdef, or shield defence. ( i personally like the shield defence one) depending on who im fighting. Now u take the 41k and i constantly keep raise shield up. ( focus shield in seiges) con stew, (str for seiges). My pdef is constantly at 82k. On occasion depending if my passives activate that goes up to 120k +. Now understand this. My mdef is constantly doubled. If not frenzy, i have focus shield up. So mdef stays at at least 40k. But thats only during seiges. I say all this to say when i was full hp i thought that made me last longer. I took hits from at the time superad for 20 -40k. Peppi was even worse. His crits was at least 50 to 70k. But on occasion his crits got up to 200k with the hp build. Basically 1 shot. I changed to my build now and i can run into any group on the server and survive long enough for me healer to make mistakes. When i was building me and my friend Tyrresa tested all this. Hp build he cpuld kill me. My new build my hp didnt drop below 100k. Thats y im saying what im saying. Pve isnt even a conversation for me now. Pvp, i can last longer than most with this build. Just my opinion. Im not saying im 100% right. But this works wonders for me. (Katrise) Side note. Peppi still hits hard especially when he has br and hes active. But nowhere near as hard as he use to. But melee and archers does nothing to me. Only 1 who hit semi hard is fooz and blackpope. But their crits r only around 5-7k. Rarely a 10k crit. Nothing above 10k from any melee or archer.

[Keoz]

55 minutes ago, Norbit said:

Hey peeps. Sry for the late responce. Ok heres where the numbers come from. I built my tank for pure survival. So im gonna start at my base. When not buffed. Only my aura and cubic going i stand at 21k pdef. Ok when fully buffed with rose barrier and knights 2 i go up to 41k. Ok gear is a consideration here. I only have lvl 3 jewels. I run full boss jewels. Got a tailisman lvl 10 from AF. And i run 1 fort tailisman. Sometimes pdef, mdef, or shield defence. ( i personally like the shield defence one) depending on who im fighting. Now u take the 41k and i constantly keep raise shield up. ( focus shield in seiges) con stew, (str for seiges). My pdef is constantly at 82k. On occasion depending if my passives activate that goes up to 120k +. Now understand this. My mdef is constantly doubled. If not frenzy, i have focus shield up. So mdef stays at at least 40k. But thats only during seiges. I say all this to say when i was full hp i thought that made me last longer. I took hits from at the time superad for 20 -40k. Peppi was even worse. His crits was at least 50 to 70k. But on occasion his crits got up to 200k with the hp build. Basically 1 shot. I changed to my build now and i can run into any group on the server and survive long enough for me healer to make mistakes. When i was building me and my friend Tyrresa tested all this. Hp build he cpuld kill me. My new build my hp didnt drop below 100k. Thats y im saying what im saying. Pve isnt even a conversation for me now. Pvp, i can last longer than most with this build. Just my opinion. Im not saying im 100% right. But this works wonders for me. (Katrise) Side note. Peppi still hits hard especially when he has br and hes active. But nowhere near as hard as he use to. But melee and archers does nothing to me. Only 1 who hit semi hard is fooz and blackpope. But their crits r only around 5-7k. Rarely a 10k crit. Nothing above 10k from any melee or archer.

I changed my APs from HP to PDef/MDef and the results were, well, very dissapointing... like trading around 20k HP for 2k/1k PDef/MDef

One should understand that those improvements are coming more from STACKING gear rathen than "building", like I said, better gear is not a different build. But there is a point to be learn: 150k HP is not the goal, but once having around 100k+HP the goal is to maximize defensiveness by stacking defensive items and dmg reduction.

When servers go up, I may post the difference in stats with basic buffs (Knight Lvl 1 Melodies Lv 4) between my regular PvE HP APs and the APs posted by Katrise. I think we all could do that in order to understand how much impact is APs really having on our stats

[Norbit]

1 hour ago, Keoz said:

I changed my APs from HP to PDef/MDef and the results were, well, very dissapointing... like trading around 20k HP for 2k/1k PDef/MDef

One should understand that those improvements are coming more from STACKING gear rathen than "building", like I said, better gear is not a different build. But there is a point to be learn: 150k HP is not the goal, but once having around 100k+HP the goal is to maximize defensiveness by stacking defensive items and dmg reduction.

When servers go up, I may post the difference in stats with basic buffs (Knight Lvl 1 Melodies Lv 4) between my regular PvE HP APs and the APs posted by Katrise. I think we all could do that in order to understand how much impact is APs really having on our stats

What im thinking we should all do (@ least on chronos server) is all the tanks in this discussion come to the areana and test builds and classes. Despite our political differences. Its a way we can test to see which build will keep u up longer, how long can u last with heals and so on. Understand that im only 104. So tanks like nazgul, and so on may be even stronger at 105 with more imfo about the a.ps. cause the 105 a.p is a big one in my book ( the one that adds 50 defence element). I think we should hook up and test. It may give the tanks thats looking for a definitive answer what their looking for. Cause as i said. Hp builddefinately didnt work for me, but for o5hers it may. Now on seiges im at 150k hp cause of valiant and pow but besudes that, i dont go over 112k. And thats with rose. I use a r95 weapon with 3 sas. Shoot me a p.m or mail if u on chronos and we can set up a time and day. And i can get some heavy hitters to put some damage to test. Ill even try to get gear to match everyone so we can be even. At least a +6 r99 set. Then we can test.

[Keoz]

43 minutes ago, Norbit said:

What im thinking we should all do (@ least on chronos server) is all the tanks in this discussion come to the areana and test builds and classes. Despite our political differences. Its a way we can test to see which build will keep u up longer, how long can u last with heals and so on. Understand that im only 104. So tanks like nazgul, and so on may be even stronger at 105 with more imfo about the a.ps. cause the 105 a.p is a big one in my book ( the one that adds 50 defence element). I think we should hook up and test. It may give the tanks thats looking for a definitive answer what their looking for. Cause as i said. Hp builddefinately didnt work for me, but for o5hers it may. Now on seiges im at 150k hp cause of valiant and pow but besudes that, i dont go over 112k. And thats with rose. I use a r95 weapon with 3 sas. Shoot me a p.m or mail if u on chronos and we can set up a time and day. And i can get some heavy hitters to put some damage to test. Ill even try to get gear to match everyone so we can be even. At least a +6 r99 set. Then we can test.

Testing is also good of course, my point is that getting HP in end game is cheap most of the time and there's no really much to trade of aside from APs and we could all see the real impact stat-wise. For example, for you upgrading your Specter to Bloody would give you a 4th HP SA so 10% extra with no sacrifice in the defense, that's a plain upgrade and not really a tactical choice

Also important about stats is that it hints from what point of view is everyone talking, my PDef and MDef are usually much lower from everyone here because I'm HK and not overgeared

I propose we all do this simple test: Knight Lv1, Melodies Lv4 and self buffs. Post both APs and Stats reached with those. Servers down at the moment btw

[Irlumir]

On 15/3/2018 at 1:03 PM, Irlumir said:

Bla bla -... boost HP is more rewarding from mid gear ( +8 set, anakim, abundance lvl 1, diamond lvl 3 or better, etc)

 

On 4/4/2018 at 10:06 AM, Norbit said:

Blabla  i have HP and a +6 set it sucks, then i change to a +10 dark set, insanity and other "minor items", change AP/DUAL to pdef and jump from 26k pdef to 41kpdef....... 

Your 41k pdef is with COV? i think not right?

On 4/4/2018 at 11:11 AM, Keoz said:

Bla Bla swith from HP to Pdef and sucks , me mid gear

I am right in my statement.....  it all depends on your lvl of gear.....

Besides swtiching from what Norbit AP/DUAL Build to HP build will drop his pdef from 41k to 36k or so( not to 28k..... like  a post suggest)   wich is no big deal v/s huge HP gains..... Besides always %pdef boost will have less impact on damage reduction for tank due to shield defence. Dont get me wrong here, pdef and mdef boosting is priority, but thats when u have good HP pool or have other means to achieve it (like weaver, COV ( a soon gone thing.....), eva rune, bloody/dark option on weapon, etc....... 

It all depends how you stack and how much you want to spend. For sure norbit is right if u use weaver because you will be on full HP.
(200 ncoin per buff, 1k Coin per siege?? maybe is not much) :::::  and for sure on full gear it will mather little wich way you wanna go...
I also agree with norbit that you can swtich AP / DUAL on pdef when you have a certain amount of HP by other means.... BUT also has to consider what Keoz shows..... the trade off on mid gear is just LOL........  2 k pdef for 20k hp? you have to be an idiot if you switch..... at least for pve...  PVP it may has its place..... 2k on a 25k-26k pdef is stil 8% or so..... for oly for sure is worth...

I will indeed test some variants to get better conclusions.... 

 

[Draecke]

a gathering for testing doesn't really work without full disclosure of the below facts

• - char level
• - dyes set up
• - skill oe's
• - dual/sub class passives set up
• - AP set up
• - gear / augments on gear etc.
• - bufs used and buf items used like dandy scroll/type of fish stews/valiant scrolls etc.

and let's be clear the gear aspect factors the strongest of all as for example my dyes & dual class skills are totally wrong for a defensive tank build and none of my skills are higher oe then +10 but my gear counters all of that np..

as has been said many times before every little things helps but certain steps factor in stronger then others and effects /priorities can differ pending on what focus one has be that PVE / PVP / Oly

 

oh and full disclosure on my side as I know there's some funny perceptions about my gear but I'm not even in the top 3 most stacked tanks in Nova, top end stuff tends to have huge diminishing returns on amount of investment so just like upgrading a gaming PC I prefer to go for 2nd best then for top of the line

[Keoz]

Yeah, @Draecke is right in that point, but it's how L2 is schemed

100% Power Item = 100 price

120% Power Item = 200-300 price

It goes like that for a lot of item (Talismans, Brooch, Circlet). So for the ones with a restricted budget, one's gotta choose wisely where to invest. For the ones who wanna be top, there's only one way

I'm close to 104 (any help would be appreciated ), so when I get there I'll do a topic to compare stats with different AP settings (that's the easiest part to change). Tests are a little more tricky, but everyone is free to test it on their own.