Feedlee Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 42 minutes ago, Quitted said: Feedle well i was talking about pve setup party with 1 healer you are talking about pvp setup with 2 healers and all the p2w cra p. Trust me if the healer goes afk while you are getting hit because he's speaking on the phone with his gf while you're in elven you simply die. if you go somewhere pvp or pve u need know what active support you have btw pve can be harder than pvp (harder concerning the dmg you get ) in elven village when i pull too many groups healer has hard time keeping me alive than in mass pvp about p2w my toon is pretty well geared but nothing special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irlumir Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 6 hours ago, Quitted said: Lol kids make me laugh, everytime. The best part is that aizen is posting in here when he doesn't even know what a palus knight should be. Lets say the things as they are. The role of the tank as a sk is closely related to the skills of the party healer. And an healer sometime, not everytime, has got mana issues unless there are 2 in the same party. I won't argue wich heal is the best to keep an sk with more than just 1 hp left since i've never played and healer 101+ but the truth is that a sk dies or lives, and so the party dies or lives, depending on what the healer is doing. No more no less. You can have as many hp bonuses as you want but if the healer sucks you will suck aswell. A bit arrogant of you...... kids? bet we are older than you. Ofcourse if healer sucks you will die. If DDS sucks you will also die due. If you suck you die aswell .Also iss....... But is absolutly not irrelevant you HP healig boost or your HP pool..... with this you boost healer efficient and therefore he dont get off MP or aid him if he/she sucks a bit. If healer totally sucks then i agree, nothing can be done... 6 hours ago, Feedlee said: 1st priority in tank is dmg reduction 2nd is pvp dmg reduction 3nd is element 4rd is mdef 5th pdef last of all is hp Srry dude we where refering mostly on PVE. Agree partial with you. HP is important for noble sacrifice as well, but yea damage reduction (all/pvp) is the most important thing on this. Mdef also, but more than mdef your focus shield overenchant on time. With that will not mather much Mdef cause you will not recive m.criticals. Magical normal hits dont hit as much 6 hours ago, Quitted said: Feedle well i was talking about pve setup party with 1 healer you are talking about pvp setup with 2 healers and all the p2w cra p. Trust me if the healer goes afk while you are getting hit because he's speaking on the phone with his gf while you're in elven you simply die. Yes, And on PVP if healers goes AFK and no purge on also all party is screw..... 5 hours ago, Feedlee said: if you go somewhere pvp or pve u need know what active support you have btw pve can be harder than pvp (harder concerning the dmg you get ) in elven village when i pull too many groups healer has hard time keeping me alive than in mass pvp about p2w my toon is pretty well geared but nothing special Thats why we where talking mostly pve.... PVP just need to have all the pvp reduction items available there..,and maybe a good pull augment If you read back all this conversation start due to some new player that ask for advices...... for sure our focus was pve there..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draecke Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 minor detail but for TK and prolly the other tanks as well not all of your "pull" attacks are actually pull as such.. only the chain skills are just saying there are more augments good to get for a tank then that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quitted Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 The kids wasn't referred to you irlu but to aizen. Someone thinks that pve or pvp a tank is a non-healer dependant toon. False. If you don't get the heal in time you die, the party dies. As for the rest everyone of us beginned to play as a tank with a different setup and it doesn't matter what the others say. The only thing that matters is that you are able to play your toon properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irlumir Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, Draecke said: minor detail but for TK and prolly the other tanks as well not all of your "pull" attacks are actually pull as such.. only the chain skills are just saying there are more augments good to get for a tank then that one You sure about that? if that the case yea you are for sure correct. I think read on korean wiki that all where pull skills, Will check. besides pvp or pve damage reduction, wich other you consider good? the stun (para if SK) boost? Or have other in mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irlumir Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, Quitted said: The kids wasn't referred to you irlu but to aizen. Someone thinks that pve or pvp a tank is a non-healer dependant toon. False. If you don't get the heal in time you die, the party dies. As for the rest everyone of us beginned to play as a tank with a different setup and it doesn't matter what the others say. The only thing that matters is that you are able to play your toon properly. jeje . I agree that for pve is healer dependant, but for sure, you recive less magic damage on focus shield ON and you aoe agro.. no one / or no bot will target you if you dont force that to happend jajaj, so for sure you can surv without heal the aoes ,. I also dont agree with HP been a useless thing on pvp. THouse archer with highly OE skills on Break will take huge punch even i you have good pvp reduction damage, but yee maybe 120k hp or so is enough.... On the mentality mention here for sure yours healer run out of MP on pve. Their progressive are way less efficient than on a tank with full HP / and also HP boost healing items. Go to elven with 150k HP wth blezz zaken / orfen soul (or bless antharas XD) and see how much easier is for healer keep ya alive. Greetz PD (some things i writte here are not directly related to your post but to all conversation :D) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feedlee Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 HP is the last concern you need have when you are trying to set a healer and a tank for pve and pvp (difference is pvp is that you need pvp reduction items thats all) there are other priorities. but anyway thats me and thats my play style some will disagree but its ok whoever wanna can pm me for full details of my set up ( dyes , AP , SA etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbit Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Wow people really believe This update was a tank nerf???? My tank has never been so solid. Just had to play it different. At first it was new. Once i learned the skills changes, cool downs, and how to negate not having a UD that caps damage, mine became 10 times better. Interupts r awesome now, and they land. Pdef and mdef went up dramatically. And overall just made my tank much funner to play. I run around looking for pvp solo knowing i wont kill anyone but the fight is just that fun. Dont know what the ones saying its a nerf r doing with their tanks. Yeah i have gear now but i didnt always. I was seiging with a +6 dark set with reg jewels and still having fun. Not dieing too much either. Man play your tank. Still the funnest class in the game cause regardless to popular belief, one of the most important classes in party. Pvp with a tank that dont know shit and 1 that does. TK power!!! *Katrise* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbit Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Set up is very important. I personally thinknive tried them all except the dps tank. I prefer pdef +mdef for dual class skills. I did the hp thing, doesnt help. If u get hit for 20 k and your max hp is 150k then do the math....but if u get hit for 3k and your max hp is 113k.....do the math again. But what do i know. To the people taking hp as a dual class, just get hp sas on your weapon. Then boost element. Thats all u need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irlumir Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Norbit said: Set up is very important. I personally thinknive tried them all except the dps tank. I prefer pdef +mdef for dual class skills. I did the hp thing, doesnt help. If u get hit for 20 k and your max hp is 150k then do the math....but if u get hit for 3k and your max hp is 113k.....do the math again. But what do i know. To the people taking hp as a dual class, just get hp sas on your weapon. Then boost element. Thats all u need. How on earth a 12% pdef/mdef will drop damage from 20k to 3k what absurd example is that.... For pve is HP. For oly sure pdef/mdef. For open pvp well dont think there is much Now ofcourse damage reduction items is always better than all, but still you need a decent HP pool. Specially if you are on a +8 set only. Agree with you that tanks are a lot better now. I been saying it since day one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbit Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Let me clarify. I dont mean 12%pdef makes the differrnce, what i meanbis the build. Full pdef mdef build. Nothing dealing with hp. Only the weapon. Meaning 150k hp on a tank with 25-28k pdef. Or 112k hp and 44-52k pdef. Now rit reduction and all that plays a role but its a big difference. When i was hp build....the shots i took were insane. Thw hp soaked em up but in pvp and pve sometimes when u got a lot of stuff hitting u, hp doesnt matter. I switched builds....not even a issue anymore. Pve....most instances dont need a healer. Pvp takes way less damage. Also note that element plays a big factor also. Im not saying this for debate. Im saying try different builds. Hp definatly doesnt work though. I did it for years and once i switched....never again FOR ME. We should get in the areana and test damage. Then we can try the different build with the different tanks. I have one of each at 101 at least. We can test this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbit Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 My max hp now with rose barrier is 113k. If i use pow or cov then it goes to like 128-130k. On seiges im at 150k. But for everyday use im at a steady 113k. I think thats enough for everything in game atm. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irlumir Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 14 hours ago, Norbit said: Let me clarify. I dont mean 12%pdef makes the differrnce, what i meanbis the build. Full pdef mdef build. Nothing dealing with hp. Only the weapon. Meaning 150k hp on a tank with 25-28k pdef. Or 112k hp and 44-52k pdef. Now rit reduction and all that plays a role but its a big difference. When i was hp build....the shots i took were insane. Thw hp soaked em up but in pvp and pve sometimes when u got a lot of stuff hitting u, hp doesnt matter. I switched builds....not even a issue anymore. Pve....most instances dont need a healer. Pvp takes way less damage. Also note that element plays a big factor also. Im not saying this for debate. Im saying try different builds. Hp definatly doesnt work though. I did it for years and once i switched....never again FOR ME. We should get in the areana and test damage. Then we can try the different build with the different tanks. I have one of each at 101 at least. We can test this. Please explain how you pass from 28k Pdef to 44 or 52k pdef with only change setup of dual / AP.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quitted Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 I don't think all of us should have a stiff position on the subject. No human beeing can know everything and the ones that say so are just kids. I suggest to enlist the various builds, ap, dual skills, sub skills, weapon sas, jews so we can test on the field like katrise suggested. On the paper it could be this one or that one and we will never know which is the best on the field, never. Tbh i always did like irlumir said but if katrise has a different approach i'm more than interested in knowing how it can work. No flames, please, we are supposed to be adults talking about our hobby, Edit: Draecke is more than welcomed in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irlumir Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Quitted said: I don't think all of us should have a stiff position on the subject. No human beeing can know everything and the ones that say so are just kids. I suggest to enlist the various builds, ap, dual skills, sub skills, weapon sas, jews so we can test on the field like katrise suggested. On the paper it could be this one or that one and we will never know which is the best on the field, never. Tbh i always did like irlumir said but if katrise has a different approach i'm more than interested in knowing how it can work. No flames, please, we are supposed to be adults talking about our hobby, Sure with all the end items gear... but is absurd what he/she posted..... With +10 dark set (no insanity) you are around 38k pdef with an "HP build" (no raise shield on ofc) not 28k. Even i have more that and i only wea a +8 set. So is absurd and unreal the examples provided. What provided was like " i was using mid gear set and Cap HP then i spend some 150 billions and switch ap / dual to pdef and thing is a lot better than before....... yeeeeeeee Narf Now, i musr re writte priorities, cause i get it clear now..... 1. Master Card 2. whathever Im not bashing the fact all must end with nice gear or anything neither that one have / want to spend whathever, but to the fact the % of difference @Norbit tells are absolutly unreal. The difference in a full pdef build is 24% more pdef vs on full HP is 39% more HP. You can have full HP with full pdef setting using weaver and a bloody dark weapon. For other players that do not have @Norbit gear and want to get the most they can with less usd expenditure ( all of us that are with some lvl 4 jewels or better, +8 sets or better, vll 104 or better have spend money on this... maybe the only one that claim not is @mixa but do not have / want to spend the couple of grands ya need to get the build suggested well, there are other alternatives that works nice, on pve........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quitted Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Well mixa and aizen are saying that they haven't spent a cent in here. Btw the idea was to post the buids so we can test them. Ofc you have to post the gear to get an idea if we can use it or not. Ofc Katrise has end game gear but nonetheless if he can add something to our l2 experience he's more than welcomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feedlee Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 http://prntscr.com/iphcr2 http://prntscr.com/iphd13 these are my AP and my element resists fully buffed (i know its too much for most ppl but i am just showing so u can see the tanks potential ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N4zgul Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 so can be light of protection dual class skill for farm as cc trigger and 12% pdef mdef on pvp? ^^ i think katrise have right, becouse this update tanks skills are more based of his general pdef/mdef, but we need only to find a ballance between hp pool and resist stuffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feedlee Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 2 hours ago, N4zgul said: so can be light of protection dual class skill for farm as cc trigger and 12% pdef mdef on pvp? ^^ i think katrise have right, becouse this update tanks skills are more based of his general pdef/mdef, but we need only to find a ballance between hp pool and resist stuffs. sorry for insisting about hp , but lets say that you play tank with 3sa dark bloody + rose + cov (if you have) w/o using anything else for hp especially AP this means that u have 110k-130k depending on race cov etc. this amount of hp is more than enough to survive (the setup i screenshot and send before on last siege gave me 140k hp with cov) so imo at pve = 12% def or light of protection (on pve you play mostly with raise shield and using it on reuse you have it up all of the time on you that means double p. def and almost zero critical hits) at pvp = 12% or mental etc trait ( you need observe if you play vs archer dagger or mage to choose wisely if use raise shield etc and use frenzy too) choosing what to use during pvp depends on what buffs you have and use if you play with knights better use trait if you play with wizard better 12% (reuse is really important for debuffs and defensive skills at this point of the game) its possible to play trait + wizard but need have endgame equip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N4zgul Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 18 hours ago, Feedlee said: sorry for insisting about hp , but lets say that you play tank with 3sa dark bloody + rose + cov (if you have) w/o using anything else for hp especially AP this means that u have 110k-130k depending on race cov etc. this amount of hp is more than enough to survive (the setup i screenshot and send before on last siege gave me 140k hp with cov) so imo at pve = 12% def or light of protection (on pve you play mostly with raise shield and using it on reuse you have it up all of the time on you that means double p. def and almost zero critical hits) at pvp = 12% or mental etc trait ( you need observe if you play vs archer dagger or mage to choose wisely if use raise shield etc and use frenzy too) choosing what to use during pvp depends on what buffs you have and use if you play with knights better use trait if you play with wizard better 12% (reuse is really important for debuffs and defensive skills at this point of the game) its possible to play trait + wizard but need have endgame equip cov i suppose its chant of victory?... :))) some lucky ppl keep powind but for cov i'm not so sure we find some crazy ppl when u say trait u mean use both on them in the same time? physical and menthal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feedlee Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 2 hours ago, N4zgul said: cov i suppose its chant of victory?... :))) some lucky ppl keep powind but for cov i'm not so sure we find some crazy ppl when u say trait u mean use both on them in the same time? physical and menthal? when red libra is up you change your dual iss to wc so that your skills reset and you have cov , then you dont learn drum and with essence you change to hierophant so u can have pom + cov easy almost all top cp run with cov-pow atm (on next update probably cov pow wont be able to be casted with awaken buffs so probably would be the end of it) can be both traits depending on your setup and and major enemy damage dealers you are facing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N4zgul Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 40 minutes ago, Feedlee said: when red libra is up you change your dual iss to wc so that your skills reset and you have cov , then you dont learn drum and with essence you change to hierophant so u can have pom + cov easy almost all top cp run with cov-pow atm (on next update probably cov pow wont be able to be casted with awaken buffs so probably would be the end of it) can be both traits depending on your setup and and major enemy damage dealers you are facing i have main feoh and i already reset on tank so this is it :)))). but this cov-pow combo is rly amazing. dunno if a toon can receive both buffs in the same time. also u need to know every healer who have blessing of saha or can remove ur powind durind the battle :))) i write u a long mail with my setup when u have enought time/mood for read it, ty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irlumir Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 On 12/3/2018 at 7:35 AM, N4zgul said: so can be light of protection dual class skill for farm as cc trigger and 12% pdef mdef on pvp? ^^ i think katrise have right, becouse this update tanks skills are more based of his general pdef/mdef, but we need only to find a ballance between hp pool and resist stuffs. Depends heavly on your gear..... If you have a +8 set and dont have 4xHP on weapon dont even consider go full pdef on AP/Dual. He is 105 and stack all thouse to reach a decent HP pool (he say not important but he also reach 120k or so and almost cap on siege so...) More HP pool = more heal recived (progressive and clever healers that keep chain heal) also can boost your overall surv on pve with cheap jewels ( orfen soul + bless zakn = +25% heal recived, that on a high HP tank increase really nice the progresives you recive).... For sure raise shield stack pdef nice, but on high the high numbers ( let say 50k vs 55k pdef that will be the diference on average boost) the damage taken will not be that less, due with 50k was already low, so the more pdef the less impact on overall surv it will have with each increase..... on pve.(example asumme you recive 10k damage, with 30k pdef. with 33k pdef will recive 9k damage. Then if start on 33k and boost 10% you will have 36.3k (300 more pdef than the first boost) but the damage taken will drop only by 700 (the new 10% from base) and damage will drop to 8.3k. Repeat it and you will notice the diminish of return at stacking pdef in every bit. Now stacked char will indeed get a lot better boost than average gear (average is +8 set, lvl 3 jewl, abun lvl 1, anak, etc). Also consider tha Cov will not be able to use on next update. http://lineage2.plaync.com/board/update/view?articleId=632026 , http://boards.rochand.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2074 22 hours ago, Feedlee said: sorry for insisting about hp , but lets say that you play tank with 3sa dark bloody + rose + cov (if you have) w/o using anything else for hp especially AP this means that u have 110k-130k depending on race cov etc. this amount of hp is more than enough to survive (the setup i screenshot and send before on last siege gave me 140k hp with cov) so imo at pve = 12% def or light of protection (on pve you play mostly with raise shield and using it on reuse you have it up all of the time on you that means double p. def and almost zero critical hits) at pvp = 12% or mental etc trait ( you need observe if you play vs archer dagger or mage to choose wisely if use raise shield etc and use frenzy too) choosing what to use during pvp depends on what buffs you have and use if you play with knights better use trait if you play with wizard better 12% (reuse is really important for debuffs and defensive skills at this point of the game) its possible to play trait + wizard but need have endgame equip Cov , pow get deleted on next patch as well as dual phys / mental trait. COV removal http://boards.rochand.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2074 http://lineage2.plaync.com/board/update/view?articleId=632026 Dual class system revamp http://lineage2.plaync.com/board/update/view?articleId=631946 Both will be part for next patch..... good thing they add cooldown reduction Your 120k average HP without cov will be imposible to achive without using etiher some dual or ap on HP. Also i guess u use evas rune to achive that HP pool. Belive me, few tanks do have bloody or dark weapons also to increase further their HP. Also fewer chars use weaver ..... For top gear for sure you are right, you achive high HP and High pdef/mdef . Now with no COV. no blood/dark option, no evas rune ..... well the HP pool will be really low withot using some points on dual / ap for HP. ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feedlee Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 i already wrote that cov pow soon wont be possible to buff, about hp i never wrote that hp arent important i just wrote what i think is the priority on building a tank dmg reduction pvp dmg reduction (dmg reduction works differently than pvp dmg reduction) element mdef pdef traits att/res hp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draecke Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 4 hours ago, Feedlee said: i already wrote that cov pow soon wont be possible to buff, about hp i never wrote that hp arent important i just wrote what i think is the priority on building a tank dmg reduction pvp dmg reduction (dmg reduction works differently than pvp dmg reduction) element mdef pdef traits att/res hp to clarify that ranking only applies to those tanks that participate in Oly and/or PVP for PVE obviously there's no PVP gear aspect and Mdef is way less a factor then Pdef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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