Expectations vs. reality (healthy discussion)

[SmileyCyrus]

Hey all,

Since the start of the server this forum has been flooded by some very interesting topics of discussion, like: 

* Are te current rates well balanced enough to be able to play this game at all in the long term
* How do the rates of this classic compare to other L2 experiences and how do we feel about that?
* Are things 'broken' or just 'hardcore'?
* Is this game falsely advertised by NCwest?
* etc.

Since these topics are very interesting to discuss it's a real shame the discussion itself often resides to 2 sides flaming eachother, blaming eachother for not understanding and, most of all, not even trying to understand the 'other side' themselves. Since this is a very old game, i assume we are all adults. Now we are not all adults with the same specifics in the brain department, but still, we are all adults. I strongly believe that if we want a good experience on this server, and if we want things to change for the best, we would all benefit from an actually civilised discussion instead of namecalling. Now I ofcourse fully realise this is next to impossible in an online environment, yet I would give it a try with this topic. 

Now if one thing is very clear it is that for a lot of players expectations don't meet reality. Now it can be an interesting discussion if this is NC's fault for creating a certain expectation or the players fault for assuming things instead of doing research. Now ofcourse, just like you all, I have my personal opinion about this matter, but I dont believe 'putting the blame' will solve things. Instead I would like to take a closer look at some assumptions and expectations

1) Classic is like the old days

I can fully understand the ambiguity of the word 'classic'. I mean, it does basically mean 'like the old days' right? The truth however is, is that is a completely new 'chronicle' that is based around the classic l2 environment. For example: no Kamael, no Gracria/Hellbound, no starwars etc. yet still with some specifc 'tweaks'.  This becomes very clear if you look at all the classic servers (private or non-private) around. This means 'remastered' may have been a better choice of words than 'classic'. It however also means, that any claim that things should be different based on a Prima guide from 'back then' (which was wrong in a lot of things anyway) or general experience from 'back then' (which may or may not be flawed with so many years and possible private servers in between) is basically invalid. Yes, some things may need to be altered, but if you want to compare to make this statement, the only thing you can validly compate to are oter l2 classic servers. You are not gonna state there should be vitality in an interlude server since it existst in a Gracia final server, right? However, you ofcourse could make a valid argument for having vitality ALSO in an interlude server. See the difference?

2) You should be able to exp with shots

Maybe you should, maybe you shouldnt. But if you should, I got a couple of questions: Why do shots exist? If its normal to use a shot every hit, why dont they just remove them from the game and make every hit hit twice as hard to begin with? Why, if one should be able to use them all the time, is it even an option to use them? Why are there normal spirit shots and blessed spiritshots to choose from? Ofcourse, that doesnt mean that one shouldnt be able to afford shots aswell. But in the game's design at all (apart from the rates) i think it's very clear that using shots all the time should not be a given. 

3)You should be able to afford d,c,b (and up) grade when you hit that level range

Again, maybe you should, maybe you shouldnt. However, fact of the matter is that there are 20 levels between NG and D, 20 levels between D and C, 12 levels between C and B and 9 levels between B and A. Calculated in experience the difference is even more between the higher grades than between te lower grades. Again, looking at this game design (again, apart from rates). Does it make sense to be able to afford the grade of gear that is in line with your level right when you hit that level range? Yes I know there is low, mid and top. But if you can affort low right from the bat, than continue to mid if you progress, get top a little further and then progress to the next grade as soon as you hit the corresponding level, then were is the challenge in that. What is the achievement (let alone advantage over others!) for heaving high-mid or top gear in a certain level range?

4) You should be able to sustain yourself
Maybe you should, maybe you shouldnt. Fact of the matter is that L2 is clearly designed as a game best played together with others. By design, It should be harder to sustain solo than with a group. Not the other way around (more bonus when you play with a group, but also easy solo to begin with). For example, I play sws. I would never be able to sustain myself with pots AND soulshots when playing solo. But then, when I think of the games design (play with group) and my role as sws in a party, the question rises: Should I even be using 10+ ss per the amount of exp and adena 1 mob gives to begin with. Same question as DD playing solo: Should I use so many pots and ss, since by design i should have heals and other support? Is the reason you cant sustain not simply the fact that you choose to play the game differently than its meant to? If i want to play a soccer match and I show up with 1 instead of 11, it has consequences too. 

 

Now what I would like to ask is this: Lets state that NC's marketing has, to say the least, been ticky and ambigious, on the edge of lying maybe. Given that fact, please still 'challenge' your own assumptions to begin with. Are they even realistic, do they fit in the game design at all, apart from rates? Could it be that your expectations are not good to begin with, no matther what NC claimed? Could you have known if you evaluated your own expectations and did proper research? After that, I would happily see some proper, mature discussions. Because, like I said in the beginning, some things definately DO need to be discussed. Yet in the right way, with a solid and valid foundation. 

[FatHips]

I think the game was intentionally advertised as a return to the old days, not a remastered version.  That's why I came, that's why everyone in my clan came.  Remastered would have been far less attractive.  With that, they are owe to keep it as close as is reasonable to the old style of play.

Just my 2 cents.  Good post.

[SmileyCyrus]

Just now, FatHips said:

I think the game was intentionally advertised as a return to the old days, not a remastered version.  That's why I came, that's why everyone in my clan came.  Remastered would have been far less attractive.  With that, they are owe to keep it as close as is reasonable to the old style of play.

Just my 2 cents.  Good post.

I think you hit the nail on the head. (is that even an english expression? In dutch it is). I honestly believe that a lot of people didnt know about the existence of l2 classic as a whole thing of itself. Heck, I didn't even know untill I stumbled upon the classic.club private server a year ago and it took me a while to comprehend what it meant aswell. 

That being said, in combinations with the way this game was advertised its perfectly logical that what happened, happened. Yes, it's also perfectly understandable that a remastered game is way less attractive than a remake. Therefore the initial disappointment is perfectly understandable (and called for) aswell. But I truly think we should stop trying to make the reality what we want it to be. L2 Classic is a remastered game, it is not a remake.

We should accept that and base all the discussions on that. If I expect to be gifted a car, and I get a bike, I would be dissapointed aswell. From that point on I got roughly 2 choices. Not accept the bike because its not a car and move on, OR accept the bike and, together with the people who gave me the bike, try to make it the best bike possible and just enjoy it. However, you cannot make a bike into a car, just because you wanted a car and got a bike. 

[ogre]

thank you oh worthy voice of reason!  and yes, FatHips has a good point too.  

[scarfz]

queue: guys who cried all over forum; gg now everyone stay online h24 because too scared to never be able to connect again lol.

rates: broke as fck but millions of topics of tears is not necessary just wait whats going on and do whats to be done when real infos are said

people who says all is fine: mannn or you are or top donator and you doing good but who wouldnt be good? ez. or you're playing 16h+ a day and ofc you are first in all parts of the game zones/items/levels but that's a life? I don't care anyway but don't talk for yourself only

about ncstore: put whatever you loves in it just don't put some overpowered star wars things like in korea. wait A loooooong time for that pls or never would be best

to ncsoft: i hope you will do good in future because i know you do it but damnnn that move was genius, boss is proud I guess anyway I don't care too just give us somethings playable.

 

 

[Immorttal]

Well you can farm without any SS... You dont need to be in a party.. It just depend onhow an what you play ... Ofc tyrant will farm faster than SwS... But SWS will find it easier when it comes.to going in groups..

[FatHips]

6 minutes ago, SmileyCyrus said:

We should accept that and base all the discussions on that. If I expect to be gifted a car, and I get a bike, I would be dissapointed aswell. From that point on I got roughly 2 choices. Not accept the bike because its not a car and move on, OR accept the bike and, together with the people who gave me the bike, try to make it the best bike possible and just enjoy it. However, you cannot make a bike into a car, just because you wanted a car and got a bike. 

On a high level, I wholeheartedly agree.  You have to make the best with what you have.  

That said, we can push the NA production team to lean a certain way when decisions can be made about certain elements.  They have the power to at least alter what we get to be more classic in the literal sense of the phrase.  Eventually that bike can get a motor and turn signals, and be closer to a car  

 

[SmileyCyrus]

4 minutes ago, Immorttal said:

Well you can farm without any SS... You dont need to be in a party.. It just depend onhow an what you play ... Ofc tyrant will farm faster than SwS... But SWS will find it easier when it comes.to going in groups..

Sure, Yet others say they cant. It's not my intention to start that exact discussion. People will always see that differently. 

2 minutes ago, FatHips said:

On a high level, I wholeheartedly agree.  You have to make the best with what you have.  

That said, we can push the NA production team to lean a certain way when decisions can be made about certain elements.  They have the power to at least alter what we get to be more classic in the literal sense of the phrase.  Eventually that bike can get a motor and turn signals, and be closer to a car  

 

The thing is this; On Ti, Aden and Giran combined we may have what? 5-10k players exluding boxes (excluding bots it may even be half that, but still ;)). Some of these want a bike, others a car. How are you gonna keep everybody statisfied?. Yes you can give the bike a motor and turn signals, but in the end most people wanting a car will still not be fully happy and most people wanting a bike will not either, since, can you still call it a bike?

In these cases the one providing the service should choose I think, stick to the choice and make it the best as possible. OR say it was a wrong choice, and switch entirely. Now to stay with the analogy. NC gave us that bike. Now they may have falsely make it look like there was a slight possibillity it would have been a car, but in the end they gave the bike. Now they could decide to take away the bike and give us a car, but we both know that is not going to happen. Therefore we should make it the best bike ever. You then could argue if puting a motor on it and turn signal would make it in fact a better bike or just less of a bike. Adding some proper gears and tires with less resistance however..

But perhaps we are getting to far in the analogy now

[FatHips]

In my opinion, you stick with what you advertised or its bad business.  What the other versions of "classic" have is actually not relevant to the conversation.  Neither private servers.  There is one official NA server and this is it.  It was advertised as a return to old days, a true remake of the old game, which implies C1-C3ish times, imo.  Each region has their own customizations within some limits, I would prefer our customizations stay more true to the old game.

But this is just an opinion, and I get that people want different things.

[iNVI]

First of all I am really enjoying this so far but it has nothing to do with classic.When I played back then sure people had their bots or just paid for millions of adena to buy gear but they didn't get double the xp I did / more dmg to mobs/losing less xp when they die    SS/mats/buff scrolls/+xp scrolls/ from the shop and who knows what else they will add there.
So people who complain about their "classic experience" while buying all that and acting like a small increase in gold or spoil will be the end of the world yeah...we didnt have those in classic maybe you should ask for all that to be removed if you want your...classic experience.Also I wish this wasn't free and you had to pay a monthly fee like back then less bots less store crap.
Haven't really checked about the gold/xp yet but I saw a pic comparing xp rates and basically it said something like lv 70+ in classic=lv 60 here that doesnt bother me much what really bothers me is spoiling 20 green mobs and getting 1 iron ore.When you are supposed to get 80+ of one material per 100 mobs and you get less than 20 thats broken its not hardcore it feels like I'm playing any other class.

I dont think you should level and have always money for soulshots tps etc I think you should learn to play with a way that makes u earn that but it SHOULD be possible right now SSD=NGS that's a joke I did some math and u make a profit of about 10ssx8adena for every click cus no one can afford them.Also crystals cost about 600a and I've seen them sold for 350-300 that's like losing HALF the value of the item u broke that shouldn't happen.

Certainly not its not a x50 server that you can have full Karmian set and demon staff when u reach 40 that's probably the best thing for me back then I spoiled I farmed for weeks if not months to get the mats for my gear and that just made it even better like the feeling I got when I got lvl 2 might on my buffer.

To summarize I think both sides should understand that even if mobs will give more gold it wont make any difference people who only farm with ss on will probably wont have enough adena to keep doing that unless they play smarter.Of course spoil is beyond broken and should be fixed from 0.20x that it feels like now to 1x.Unless of course we prefer the economy to be run by bots instead of players actually playing the game.

[ciwg]

@SmileyCyrus you are 100% right
SS are not made for using all the time
L2 is a game where all classes are dependent to others, but some can be more independent at cost that they are less needed in parties.
getting gear is hard, there is a reason why some mobs lv 27 start to give D grade items, and not in lv 20

finally someone has a brain

but exp/adena/drops balance is weird, and a lot of mobs are just bugged,

[riO]

...at the moment in my honest opinion many things go too wrong. Iam would call myself a Veteran of the glory "old" l2 days from tawain beta till Interlude i played very active, basically daily. The first thing what came into my mind hearing of NcSoft NA classic was...woah a dream come true. Again killing tons of mobs in parties, spoiling hundreds of mobs for recipes and mats...spending quiet some time in the game to achief something together. I know how hard L2 was back then but on the other hand i also remember how noobish we all were. I mean things like Soulshots took me actually many days to find out what it was that brings the weapon to glow! Or what kind of party setup actually works together...we were running around randomly and killing mobs...yeah it worked but it was just ridiculous if i think about that nowdays.

Well what i actually wanna say is that i dont think iam a noob when it comes to "hardcore" but i feel like many things are just broken and not how it supposed to be, at least in my book. People got very excited the very first time they heared about a NA classic but many of you can see a lot of them are disappointed, including me. They took the game and made a well freestyle testing object out of it. NcSoft NA know how L2 works from EU and RU servers also they have experience from previous L2 chronicles but what they did here is something complete new, never tested random system. We have spoil rates never seen before on a server. We have exp rates that doenst fit any chonicle before. We have a payment system that totally blew my mind and from many others obviously also. We have bugs that shouldnt be in a 2018 classic version,(like Soulshot) i mean they are not running this for the first time. The queue system is super f u cked up and kicking people constantly out of the game.

I think you getting my point here. Players from previous generation, i mean real L2 early chronicle players C1-C3 are just lost in this. This is not what we wanted or what we were looking for. These changes are horrible and totaly destroy the feeling of L2. Why would NcSoft make such changes? For what reasons? What are they aiming for...Nothing of this was tested before and they running it like that. People are getting mad and everyone can see it in the forums. Things are not set up very well and that backfires now. I know a company needs to earn money too but 30€ for a D o n a t i o n is just way too high. Players who payed now would also have payed on a normal rated server. Bring back the real Classic on normal stats and everyone will be happy...in long terms people gonna quick, including me. Iam already waiting for changes and if nothing happens iam outa here.

 

[SmileyCyrus]

First of all I am really enjoying this so far but it has nothing to do with classic.When I played back then sure people had their bots or just paid for millions of adena to buy gear but they didn't get double the xp I did / more dmg to mobs/losing less xp when they die    SS/mats/buff scrolls/+xp scrolls/ from the shop and who knows what else they will add there

That depends on what you look at. What you say is 100% true but its just a specific part of the reality as a whole. You could also state that the game has the same area's,the same races/classes (almost) the same gear as 'back then' and (almost) the same skills. Therefore it has way more to do with 'back then' than GOD had for example. 

This again shows the problem: NC did NOT do its part when it comes to creating the right expectation. But did 'we' do 'ours' or did we just stop doing our part when we saw the word classic and all the assumptions that straight away came with it? I mean, for any of us, if we had just logged in to one of the existing L2 Classic servers around we would have instantly noticed it is not an exact remake. How many of us did that kind of research?

A lot of stuff is broken. Yes i also spoiled 50 mobs with 40% chance coal and got only 1(!) from drop(!). Also, the 'wall' that some people speak of could be a serious issue. Furthermore it is clear the current playerbase may be looking for some things that aren't provided at the moment. However, before changes can be made and fixes can be done, I truly believe people need to accept the reality. That reality is that L2 Classic is not an exact remake and that each and every one of us could have known that before the start, no matter what NC soft seemed(!) to imply. Because, lets be honsest, also the implications made are subjective. 

[FatHips]

6 minutes ago, riO said:

30€ for a D o n a t i o n is just way too high.

Why do you call it a don.a.tion? you are paying a company for a service. 

The private server crowd is loud here.

There's a reason you are here and not on a private server, private servers are corrupt and not stable.

You pay for it with corporate problems of a Korean company that is run like shit.  Pick your poison.

[ephy]

53 minutes ago, FatHips said:

I think the game was intentionally advertised as a return to the old days, not a remastered version.  That's why I came, that's why everyone in my clan came.  Remastered would have been far less attractive.  With that, they are owe to keep it as close as is reasonable to the old style of play.

Just my 2 cents.  Good post.

Unfortunately for you, I think this is the "remastered" version. Classic ruleset is very different from the old days. Very different. 

[Dorsch]

I am disappointed. Extremely disappointed. Not just with ncwest but with gaming companies as a whole. Everything is so rushed and majority of games feel untested. From early access games being so broken that they in return kill themselves before they have a chance to show how good they can be just because devs wanted to make money asap to cahs shops completely ruining video games for the consumer. Cash shops allow one whale to pay what a company would make in 100 subs so they dont have to give any damns about the quality of the game. They know a lot of people will play just because they sank too much money and cant walk away from the investment. You have game companies like pearl abyss who change things and exclude it from patch notes constantly, tell people the issue is on their side for months, then fess up later on that it was them. BDO overhauled their entire combat system 2 years after release completelt gimping some classes to the point of not being able to grind for weeks because they would only patch weekly and even weekly patches would be released saying this wont work until you get the next patch... That lasted 6 to 7 weeks. Im sorry but bdo is a cash shop heavy game and people spent 1000s on their characters and you expect them to reroll and do it again because you decided you wanted to 100 change the game? Id put money on it that if games had their cash shops go down they would bring down the servers and do a hot fix asap... Bring back subs, atleast then companies actually gave a damn and had to work to keep everyone there because that was their income, not just a couple whales

[Dorsch]

Long story short, people need to seriously start blacklisting companies and not put up with crap. Then we will finally have good games back

[Jackl]

My main issue is that rates aren't like C1/C2 this version is based on. They also aren't like any other Classic server in existence.

When I originally played I was a student with far too much time on my hands. I now have a job, family, and further responsibilities that make no-lifing this version, that REQUIRES it now, impossible. Nor am I going to drop hundreds of dollars into classic "events" and watch it slowly descend into the madness Retail has become.

For me it is either progression is intrinsically available, or it is not viable.

[Rodah]

1 hour ago, SmileyCyrus said:

Hey all,

* Are the current rates well balanced enough to be able to play this game at all in the long term
* How do the rates of this classic compare to other L2 experiences and how do we feel about that?
* Are things 'broken' or just 'hardcore'?
* Is this game falsely advertised by NCwest?
* etc.

Good post; here are my answers after a full week of classic!

-I don't know if current rates are sustainable.  Initially, I agreed with Fathips but, I'm not so sure anymore.  Simply put; there are LOTS of people who already have TOP D gear after ONE week.  This means people are doing it, period!  I don't want to get into how they are doing it either because it is kinda irrelevant.  For example; in the glory days everyone is referencing, just about everyone had top grade gear when they reached the appropriate level BUT, "virtually" everyone RMTed (please don't argue this one) and, even if you were one of the pious few who didn't, you still benefited from the trickle down effect of others who did!.  I only mention this because it seems to be ignored by most people who are complaining about rates.

-Of course I would like better rates but I'm also not loosing my mind over it.  I took the time to explore/experiment with what is available in the current version and have been making the best of it.  I think comparisons to other versions are unproductive.  It is better to recognize what NCNA has to do in order to open/maintain a classic version of L2.

- See point one!  If things were broken people wouldn't have TOP D and C already.  Is it hardcore?  Yes and no; for casual/non-VIP it most certainly is!  For Spenders it's actually...... mis-aligned?

-Is it falsely advertised?  Seriously?  No................

[Dorsch]

I mean its a little foolish to think people wouldnt have d or c or the equivalent in any game regardless of difficulty. Especially when theres 100s of people helping one party of people get drops from raid bosses

[Jackl]

There are also certain old personalities around to whom money is no object. You know who they are.

[oOcola]

I think its just not a good game...? 

[Dorsch]

Lineage 2 is a good game, i feel sorry for live players and current classic players who never got to experience this game back in its hay day

[FatHips]

26 minutes ago, Jackl said:

My main issue is that rates aren't like C1/C2 this version is based on. They also aren't like any other Classic server in existence.

When I originally played I was a student with far too much time on my hands. I now have a job, family, and further responsibilities that make no-lifing this version, that REQUIRES it now, impossible. Nor am I going to drop hundreds of dollars into classic "events" and watch it slowly descend into the madness Retail has become.

For me it is either progression is intrinsically available, or it is not viable.

Apparently, the rates you speak of are roughly the same as Japan and Taiwan, that both have free classic L2 servers.

It's unlikely NC Korea made an entirely independent set of tables for NA.  It's probably completely identical to other free-2-play servers out there.

You cannot compare a free to play server with a pay to play server.

This is why the game should be pay to play.

[FatHips]

26 minutes ago, Rodah said:

Good post; here are my answers after a full week of classic!

-I don't know if current rates are sustainable.  Initially, I agreed with Fathips but, I'm not so sure anymore.  Simply put; there are LOTS of people who already have TOP D gear after ONE week. 

Lots don't when you compare it to the server population.  Also, the entire population received mid NG weapon, armor, jewels, and mid-D armor that is sufficient to get into the 40s.  You're not seeing the wall that will exist.  Honestly before 40, the game is managable, though painful at certain points.

You've got to expand your perspective beyond what is immediately in front of your eyes.

In any game some group will get ahead, and they should.