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Expectations vs. reality (healthy discussion)

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Dorsch    13

I mean sure maybe the server wasnt falsely advertised but what are people supposed to think when you keep saying a classic feel with some new qol features. Personally when I think of that i dont picture spoil rates being 5 percent on things that have been 70 percent on every other version of the game lol. Was kinda curious so I spoiled 70 percent antidotes and sure enough it was just about 70 percent. Then i spoiled charcoal at 70 percent(i think 60 percent was the lowest i found on any database) and i was getting about 5 percent. 

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Zalsaria    2
13 minutes ago, FatHips said:

Lots don't when you compare it to the server population.  Also, the entire population received mid NG weapon, armor, jewels, and mid-D armor that is sufficient to get into the 40s.  You're not seeing the wall that will exist.  Honestly before 40, the game is managable, though painful at certain points.

You've got to expand your perspective beyond what is immediately in front of your eyes.

In any game some group will get ahead, and they should.

I usually am part of that group that gets ahead but these servers are making it almost impossibly for an not ingame issue, something I wish they would have thought of is server capacity, I've got at this point 4 characters in the late teens simply due to the fact that I can't connect to Talking Island (where I started originally) at all anymore, I moved to Giran it happened again, and now I'm on Aden where no one talks and when they do I see barely any english being spoken.

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Zalsaria    2
13 minutes ago, FatHips said:

Lots don't when you compare it to the server population.  Also, the entire population received mid NG weapon, armor, jewels, and mid-D armor that is sufficient to get into the 40s.  You're not seeing the wall that will exist.  Honestly before 40, the game is managable, though painful at certain points.

You've got to expand your perspective beyond what is immediately in front of your eyes.

In any game some group will get ahead, and they should.

I usually am part of that group that gets ahead but these servers are making it almost impossibly for an not ingame issue, something I wish they would have thought of is server capacity, I've got at this point 4 characters in the late teens simply due to the fact that I can't connect to Talking Island (where I started originally) at all anymore, I moved to Giran it happened again, and now I'm on Aden where no one talks and when they do I see barely any english being spoken.

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Lawman    147

Wonderful post.  Hope things can stay civil.

All we had to go by before the servers opened were the advertisements and the other classic servers.  The ads promised a return to the Age of Splendor, which at least suggested the Prima guide would be relevant (yes, I know it wasn't perfect, but I used it extensively from C1 on and it's drop/spoil tables were pretty accurate).  The ads called the game "Classic" which at least suggested that it might be similar to other "Classic" servers such as Skelth.  NCWest chose not to publish its own wiki, leaving us to turn to the wiki for EU  Classic as the only place we could go for information.  Thus, while we could reasonably have expected features from Skelth like the easy leveling 1-20 quests and the rewards for reaching new levels, we could not have anticipated that the drop/spoil/adena rates would reflect not the old classic, not the prima guide, not the other Classic servers, but the rates on the current live servers.  Whether that was a pleasant or unpleasant surprise depends on what kind of server each individual wants, but there is no question it was a surprise.

With that in mind, here are my answers:

1. I wouldn't use the word "like" the old days, but classic is vaguely similar to the old days.  It was nostalgic watching folks have to sit and restore hp/mp and compete for mobs on a busy server.  The pace is slower.  And I loved seeing the old starter villages again.  But the game in the old days was far better balanced.  Adena and experience were set so that, if you played well, as you reached each new grade, or soon thereafter, you could afford the lowest level equipment for that grade and, as you progressed through that grade you could afford better and better equipment until the next grade.  In the new "Classic" gaining exp and levels is easier.  Gaining adena and equipment is much harder.  In the old days, if you needed additional funds, you could start a dwarf and make good adena spoiling/crafting.  I sold many millions of D soulshots to make the money I needed, and actually played a spoiler as my main for many months.  Now dwarves, especially spoilers, are nearly useless.  Spoils don't pay for shots.  Playing a spoiler without shots means taking a long time to kill and sitting a lot (or spending even more time developing a healer) for VERY few spoils.  For me, anyway, this makes the game less fun and far more time-consuming.

2. I experienced many an hour without using shots in the original game, to save money.  But it was a reasonable trade-off.  I could still kill reasonably quickly and, if I wished, I could still make money, albeit more slowly, using shots.  The current game is broken in that regard.  If one uses shots in normal grinding (and does not spend real money buying them from the store), the reduced drops/spoils don't pay for the grind.  Yes, there are ways around this problem (repeating spider quests, buying from the L2store), but it should not exist.  One should be able to choose whether to grind with shots and make money, or grind without shots, take more time, but make more money, just as one could in the old game.

3. I believe you should not be require to play far into one grade without being able to afford the lowest gear for that grade.  The whole point of having spoilers is to allow people a way, in a reasonable time, to be able to afford such gear.  I realize that some will say only the most talented players who know all the best ways to make money should have the proper gear for a level, but that makes the game difficult and unenjoyable for the vast majority.  The best players should be able to get ahead.  But the average players should be able to make reasonable progress in a way that does not detract from the enjoyment of the game.

4. Here is where I think we most seriously disagree.  The game is made for both solo and group players equally.  Solo players should be able to sustain themselves, even prosper.  Some classes should be better for soloing (tyrant, spoiler, for example).  Others should be better for grouping (healers, buffers, for example).  The main reason for having so many different classes is to allow so many different types of game play.  Pick the class that best suits the way you want to play.  Even later in the game, the distinction continues.  Castle and fortress sieges and raid bosses are made for parties.  Olympiad and cc (if classic ever gets that far) are made for soloing, indeed, must be soloed.

If I may add one more thing.  Making the game free-to-play and making adena acquisition far more difficult have exacerbated the extreme bot/RMT problems and made them harder to address.  As one who never used a bot program or bought or sold adena or items for real money this deeply concerns me.  It seriously compromises the gameplay of honest players and I'm not at all certain NCWest can do anything about it, or will even try very hard.

All just my opinion, of course. 

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FatHips    237

Dear God I hope they never implement the abomination of ceremony of chaos.

I vote territory wars with reset flags each week.  Those were better than sieges.

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Lawman    147

FatHips, I bristle at the term "donator" as well, but I think it's just a translation problem.  Don't take it too seriously.

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Lawman    147

Yeah, it's hard not to respond sarcastically.  People driving themselves crazy trying to get in servers that are full of people.  People not being able to grind in the most desirable areas because others are already grinding there.  A poll about drops that over 1,300 people voted in.  Doesn't seem like a dead game or dead community to me.

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FatHips    237
Just now, Lawman said:

Yeah, it's hard not to respond sarcastically.  People driving themselves crazy trying to get in servers that are full of people.  People not being able to grind in the most desirable areas because others are already grinding there.  A poll about drops that over 1,300 people voted in.  Doesn't seem like a dead game or dead community to me.

someone just wiped away the trolls it seems.  Well done @mods

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FatHips    237
13 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Territory wars were great fun.  I have no idea why they stopped them.

What update were they? that's a private server I'd potentially play if this goes south.

Yeah never played one myself either.  Any nerd who knows all the updates is def. a private server warrior, or autistic.  Or both.

Edited by FatHips

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Lawman    147

Sorry, I don't play private servers, so I have no idea.  Don't remember what update they were either.  Gee, I'm no help at all.

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theWretched    0

I have some pretty big issues with this game. Take this from a guy who never really played L2 and obviously, these are my opinions.

Soulshots

   These seem to serve no purpose other than a means for crafters to make money and to slow solo play. I would prefer soul shots not exist. I would rather the game be semi to difficult depending on the class/race that you choose. My guess would be that basic attacks should do 1.25x damage than they do now with no shots in the game. Shots do not bring an interesting mechanic to the game.

 

Crafting

   Make crafters viable without shots. I am perfectly happy to buy 90% of my gear from crafters. I am perfectly satisfied with my gear wearing out so that I have to purchase new gear. There are other ways to make crafters the best at the economy without shots. Eve does it.

 

Classes

   Early classes seem boring. Why do they even exist. The sheer number of classes is what made me take a look at this game. When I realizes that as you level their is a class reduction, i left. The strength of this game lies in its options and I believe that those options should come early and often. I want choice. I want to make strange builds because thats what I enjoy. I want to play classes that others say suck and attempt to make it work. I want an excellent solo character. I want a shitty solo character that excels in group play. I want choice.

 

PvE

   PvE mostly seems boring. What is this game about? Is it about sitting in an area and repeatedly killing the same mobs? If so, that doesnt interest me. I want to group and I also want to solo. I would be happy if 20% of PvE could be solo'd with specific classes being able to solo harder content to maybe 40%. I am perfectly happy with unbalanced combat because I like making characters that are good at specific things. I assume that if I make the best support character that I will suffer alone, obviously a support character belongs in a group. I assume pet classes will excel at solo content because they arent technically solo. I like choice.

 

PvP

   I want to participate in PvP. I keep seeing people say that the PvP is good. I dont know if I have the desire to deal with the monotony to finally reach PvP.

 

Just some opinions from a lineage 2 noob...

 

 

 

 

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FatHips    237

pve is by its nature boring as hell in L2.

It's supposed to be.  I know that sounds bizarre, but the reason for it is to want to do it as efficiently as possible, therefore to spend the least time doing it as possible.

This creates competition for the best spaces (They are made unequal on purpose).  Then pvp happens, that's what is fun in the game.

Not much is more satisfying in this game than kicking someone out of the best leveling spot, and knowing that group has to "downgrade" and you begin to get ahead.

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Cardano    32

Or just fkin make a group of ppl u enjoy playing with and talk about stuff while grinding.

And time flies and it aint boring.

Journey > Destination

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@FatHips and @SmileyCyrus each touch on a lot of good points. Honestly I'm far too exhausted, at this point to reiterate my opinion on some of the more polarizing debates but I will say that my train of thought aligns more closely with @FatHips. The below statement say's enough: 

51 minutes ago, FatHips said:

You've got to expand your perspective beyond what is immediately in front of your eyes 

If the server died tomorrow and everyone here decided to apply this sentiment to the rest of their lives, then L2Classic would have served a greater purpose lol. 

I am confident the current design is unsustainable. I've no-life'd L2 with the best of them and while I may enjoy pvp more than most and/or xp'ing less than, I don't think hitting 75 in c2/c3 was particularly easy. It became progressively easier as gear, and buffs became more accessible but I certainly wouldn't call it easy at any point, pre-interlude. Currently 1-20 is largely the same here as it was on retail, and anyone whose played l2 hardcore can push themselves to 40 without breaking a sweat (although it is by no means fast). With that being said, the xp requirement for lvl 70 in L2Classic is nothing short of absurd (It's equivalent to getting 4 characters to 75 on old school retail). When you pair that with the reduced adena and spoil rates, as well as the fact that % loss on death remains unchanged (assuming it ever gets fixed), you have a distinct issue. I'm a hardcore pvp'er and I am having nightmares about 4% loss at 60+ (level 59 is slightly more difficult than hitting 75 was on retail).  The broken (or reduced by intention?) spoil rate itself is probably unsustainable, but all of these issues combined? It's just impractical. 

What bothers me the most is that I think some of the rational minds within this thread alone could probably have designed a more thoughtful re-hashing of Lineage 2. 

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Ganda    0

Any news on Spoil? my Scavenger feels absolutely useless, and i don't know how the economy of post D grade is gonna work without dwarfs injecting mats into the economy

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Rodah    24
1 hour ago, FatHips said:

Lots don't when you compare it to the server population.  Also, the entire population received mid NG weapon, armor, jewels, and mid-D armor that is sufficient to get into the 40s.  You're not seeing the wall that will exist.  Honestly before 40, the game is managable, though painful at certain points.

You've got to expand your perspective beyond what is immediately in front of your eyes.

In any game some group will get ahead, and they should.

Truth is neither of us know what will happen at higher levels.  Your scenario is plausible certainly but still only a prediction.  In fact, as I write this there is someone shouting "WTB Karman Gloves Fabrics" (while linking one I might add).  Even with the bad drop rates gear is still reaching the server so.... IDK.

 

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Rodah    24

My prediction; hardcore, organized CPs will have no problem getting C grade but, they will have to work hard for B grade (as they should right?).  Hardcore solo players will also be able to get C grade although it will be harder still.  Casual players are going to have it rough and getting top D will be a challenge. 

Is this good or bad?  IDK.

Another thing to consider; hitting 70 is doable in top C so there won't be a gear "wall" which prevents hardcore people from getting into the 60s.  At which point they can do whatever they want to farm gear.

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FatHips    237
13 minutes ago, Rodah said:

Truth is neither of us know what will happen at higher levels.  Your scenario is plausible certainly but still only a prediction.  In fact, as I write this there is someone shouting "WTB Karman Gloves Fabrics" (while linking one I might add).  Even with the bad drop rates gear is still reaching the server so.... IDK.

 

You're right, but we do know we are not getting free gear (For now ...)

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Sinkest    39
2 hours ago, Rodah said:

Good post; here are my answers after a full week of classic!

-I don't know if current rates are sustainable.  Initially, I agreed with Fathips but, I'm not so sure anymore.  Simply put; there are LOTS of people who already have TOP D gear after ONE week.  This means people are doing it, period!  I don't want to get into how they are doing it either because it is kinda irrelevant.  For example; in the glory days everyone is referencing, just about everyone had top grade gear when they reached the appropriate level BUT, "virtually" everyone RMTed (please don't argue this one) and, even if you were one of the pious few who didn't, you still benefited from the trickle down effect of others who did!.  I only mention this because it seems to be ignored by most people who are complaining about rates.

-Of course I would like better rates but I'm also not loosing my mind over it.  I took the time to explore/experiment with what is available in the current version and have been making the best of it.  I think comparisons to other versions are unproductive.  It is better to recognize what NCNA has to do in order to open/maintain a classic version of L2.

- See point one!  If things were broken people wouldn't have TOP D and C already.  Is it hardcore?  Yes and no; for casual/non-VIP it most certainly is!  For Spenders it's actually...... mis-aligned?

-Is it falsely advertised?  Seriously?  No................

A lot of people have top D gear already? I've yet to see anyone walkinga around in the top D armor and I haven't seen a single person with a Top D weapon. Where are you seeing this?!

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Zatheus    0

3-4) By no means I expected to get TOP NG by 20, at all, I'm realistic. But I really didn't expect to be this poor by lvl 25, I only have a 30k dagger, haven't bought any clothes, can't buy more than 100 shoots at a time, no potions and stuff. I would gladly trade every single gift they give for a chance to get more gear steadily by myself. 

I came willing to play with parties and to spend plenty of times farming quests, mobs and everything related to that grind. But now I cannot think where I'll be when I ran out of potions. Sure, I can play with my friends to spend less consumables, but I still want to be able to do stuff by myself when they're not around. Not at all the Classic experience I wanted or thought I'd have.  

Edited by Zatheus
Typo (s)

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airfathaaaaa    45
2 hours ago, FatHips said:

Dear God I hope they never implement the abomination of ceremony of chaos.

I vote territory wars with reset flags each week.  Those were better than sieges.

both are retarded since we are full of bots..but if i had to choose one territory wars it is

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xHaseo    83

Ok, let's get serious. 

3 hours ago, SmileyCyrus said:

1) Classic is like the old days

I can fully understand the ambiguity of the word 'classic'. I mean, it does basically mean 'like the old days' right? The truth however is, is that is a completely new 'chronicle' that is based around the classic l2 environment. For example: no Kamael, no Gracria/Hellbound, no starwars etc. yet still with some specifc 'tweaks'.  This becomes very clear if you look at all the classic servers (private or non-private) around. This means 'remastered' may have been a better choice of words than 'classic'. It however also means, that any claim that things should be different based on a Prima guide from 'back then' (which was wrong in a lot of things anyway) or general experience from 'back then' (which may or may not be flawed with so many years and possible private servers in between) is basically invalid. Yes, some things may need to be altered, but if you want to compare to make this statement, the only thing you can validly compate to are oter l2 classic servers. You are not gonna state there should be vitality in an interlude server since it existst in a Gracia final server, right? However, you ofcourse could make a valid argument for having vitality ALSO in an interlude server. See the difference?

2) You should be able to exp with shots

Maybe you should, maybe you shouldnt. But if you should, I got a couple of questions: Why do shots exist? If its normal to use a shot every hit, why dont they just remove them from the game and make every hit hit twice as hard to begin with? Why, if one should be able to use them all the time, is it even an option to use them? Why are there normal spirit shots and blessed spiritshots to choose from? Ofcourse, that doesnt mean that one shouldnt be able to afford shots aswell. But in the game's design at all (apart from the rates) i think it's very clear that using shots all the time should not be a given. 

3)You should be able to afford d,c,b (and up) grade when you hit that level range

Again, maybe you should, maybe you shouldnt. However, fact of the matter is that there are 20 levels between NG and D, 20 levels between D and C, 12 levels between C and B and 9 levels between B and A. Calculated in experience the difference is even more between the higher grades than between te lower grades. Again, looking at this game design (again, apart from rates). Does it make sense to be able to afford the grade of gear that is in line with your level right when you hit that level range? Yes I know there is low, mid and top. But if you can affort low right from the bat, than continue to mid if you progress, get top a little further and then progress to the next grade as soon as you hit the corresponding level, then were is the challenge in that. What is the achievement (let alone advantage over others!) for heaving high-mid or top gear in a certain level range?

4) You should be able to sustain yourself
Maybe you should, maybe you shouldnt. Fact of the matter is that L2 is clearly designed as a game best played together with others. By design, It should be harder to sustain solo than with a group. Not the other way around (more bonus when you play with a group, but also easy solo to begin with). For example, I play sws. I would never be able to sustain myself with pots AND soulshots when playing solo. But then, when I think of the games design (play with group) and my role as sws in a party, the question rises: Should I even be using 10+ ss per the amount of exp and adena 1 mob gives to begin with. Same question as DD playing solo: Should I use so many pots and ss, since by design i should have heals and other support? Is the reason you cant sustain not simply the fact that you choose to play the game differently than its meant to? If i want to play a soccer match and I show up with 1 instead of 11, it has consequences too. 

1) Classic is not like the old days. The main reason why it's "classic" it's 'cause you get back the 5 races and the 32 original classes. No kamael nor ertheia. 
Grade is up to S grade in the KR version and up to the B in our version.
Some fuction and some areas are like they were in old days. But this is it. 
Some features that has been added over the years still remains. Classes are learning skills from all patches (hide, shadow step, critical wound) and some of them are totally exclusive to classic version (daggers' 'throw dagger' skill, duelists stunning with the 'banana' and also the transformation you learn levelling up...just to say some.).
And as you said "we're all adults". This game is 15 years old and 90% of the players who play this game are OLD players. This game IS NOT newbie friendly so it's near to impossible for a newbie to start playing this game. Said so, the game HAD to become "easier". Being nostalgic is fine but don't die there. 

2) Problem is that our current rates are "broken". This means that most of us can't afford SS 'cause you're dropping like 60-70 adena per mob. With all the drops and adenas i earn from hunting mobs for 1h i can't sustain myself. So i can't buy SS and arrows and save some adenas for improve my gear. As soon as they will update the REAL classic rates from 1.5/3.0 patch notes, you wont have any more issues of this kind. Both drop rates and adenas amount would be enough to allow you to sustain urself. As for the spoils : i don't know how broken it is...but sweeping a mob IS NOT 100%. Their rates are NOT 100%. So even if the mob turns blue it doesn't mean you will sweep something. This means you may even spoil 50 mobs in a row and being so unlucky to get nothing. 

3) Meeeh, this is "yes and no". The servers just started so it's REALLY hard to switch between grades right after you hit the level. As for the "what's the achievement for heaving a mid-top gear in a certail level range" it's that you'll get stronger. If you're stronger then your pt gets stronger. Both the things get stronger. Would it be usefull to have a C grader in a full pt of A grader? No, 'cause that means his armor may be too weak for that zone/pvp and he'll turn being useless. 

4) Once again : MEEEH. This game allows you to play BOTH the ways. Solo (with boxes, not REALLY solo) AND party. It's up to you to decide how to play this game. BUT THIS WORKS JUST FOR THE XP. Any solo player will turn into a pt player sooner or later. 'cause end game contents and most of the fun comes from pt things. 9v9, mass pvp, sieges and RBs are thing you must do in a group. IMHO i'd rather go and xp 'till lv 70 ALONE so i wont get any annoing noob in group who can't play this game (after 15 years.) and then look for a clan/CP for PVP or things like that. 

 

So. Stop complaining for any thing. This game has evolved, for better or for worst. This is no longer the 2003's L2, this is the 2018's L2. Feeling nostalgic is ok but let the past be the past. Stop forcing it into the present or we'll have no future. A game can't stay the same for 15 years. Most of the problems will be resolved asap they'll update the rates, making the game way more enjoyable for the players. If you guys are looking for a real L2 C1-C3 experience...well...l2topzone is ur friend, go and see if you manage to find a private server you can enjoy. Lineage 2 classic is not C1. 
And you guys are yet to see how this game will TRULY become pay to win. 

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