RealityCheck Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Dear NCSOFT West, please consider reducing multibox limit to just one client for non-VIP players. VIP 1 or 2 would allow u to launch 1 extra client for example, while VIP 3-4 would allow u all 3 like now. You can get more money, we can get less waiting time. Because most of free acounts are boxes, bots, afk fishers and afk shops. @Juji @Hime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeCee Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 So you just throw off the facade and make the game p2w. If that's how we want it then fk yea, lets go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, RealityCheck said: Dear NCSOFT West, please consider reducing multibox limit to just one client for non-VIP players. VIP 1 or 2 would allow u to launch 1 extra client for example, while VIP 3-4 would allow u all 3 like now. You can get more money, we can get less waiting time. Because most of free acounts are boxes, bots, afk fishers and afk shops. @Juji @Hime Cause now non-VIP causing these problems. Just to know non-VIP players CANT EVEN LOG THEIR MAIN ACCOUNT. Vips 1-2-3-4 have priority always it doesnt matter if a non-vip is in the sequence 100 if there are 200vip4 going to log guess what , they will log first. I dont know in what planet ur living but sure not in Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Russ said: Cause now non-VIP causing these problems. Just to know non-VIP players CANT EVEN LOG THEIR MAIN ACCOUNT. Vips 1-2-3-4 have priority always it doesnt matter if a non-vip is in the sequence 100 if there are 200vip4 going to log guess what , they will log first. I dont know in what planet ur living but sure not in Earth. U surely don't understand why servers are even full at first place. Those 6k online are not 6k active players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 9 minutes ago, DeeCee said: So you just throw off the facade and make the game p2w. If that's how we want it then fk yea, lets go! Yeah 1$ per month for an extra box is a hellap2w. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDawg Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 7 minutes ago, DeeCee said: So you just throw off the facade and make the game p2w. If that's how we want it then fk yea, lets go! Kind of makes sense though right? If you want to take up more space on server you should have to pay in something right? Especially if it's preventing others from enjoying the game? If you're morbidly obese and book a flight and end up requiring 2 seats on a plane, and it was a booked flight - shouldn't you have to pay more for that extra seat then someone with only 1 seat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverArrow Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 12 minutes ago, RealityCheck said: Dear NCSOFT West, please consider reducing multibox limit to just one client for non-VIP players. VIP 1 or 2 would allow u to launch 1 extra client for example, while VIP 3-4 would allow u all 3 like now. You can get more money, we can get less waiting time. Because most of free acounts are boxes, bots, afk fishers and afk shops. @Juji @Hime You see it all wrong, its not the non-vip the problems , its the vip ( and i am one of em) VIPs have 1 or 2 accounts full vip and more than often support thoses vips account with numerous other non vip account to make the most out of it. NCSOFT knows and just cant find a solution about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Russ said: I think u dont get it , if you want to dual box , get a nice solution like *bleep* did. What u saying is just ridiculous Sorry no idea, I don't play on illegal servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeCee Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, JDawg said: Kind of makes sense though right? If you want to take up more space on server you should have to pay in something right? Especially if it's preventing others from enjoying the game? If you're morbidly obese and book a flight and end up requiring 2 seats on a plane, and it was a booked flight - shouldn't you have to pay more for that extra seat then someone with only 1 seat? That's fine if that's the direction we want to go. Keep in mind that f2p people will be gone as there is no way they can compete. 3 minutes ago, RealityCheck said: Yeah 1$ per month for an extra box is a hellap2w. You are right it isn't expensive. So wouldn't everyone just invest a small amount to box. Then we are in the same situation. You know the botters and RMT sellers are going to invest in accounts. NC makes more money and we get the same game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Just now, RealityCheck said: Sorry no idea, I don't play on illegal servers. Then delete your thread. You have absolutely no idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 6 minutes ago, JDawg said: Kind of makes sense though right? If you want to take up more space on server you should have to pay in something right? Especially if it's preventing others from enjoying the game? If you're morbidly obese and book a flight and end up requiring 2 seats on a plane, and it was a booked flight - shouldn't you have to pay more for that extra seat then someone with only 1 seat? Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDawg Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 1 minute ago, DeeCee said: That's fine if that's the direction we want to go. Keep in mind that f2p people will be gone as there is no way they can compete. You are right it isn't expensive. So wouldn't everyone just invest a small amount to box. Then we are in the same situation. You know the botters and RMT sellers are going to invest in accounts. NC makes more money and we get the same game. I definitely don't want f2p players to leave. At same time if f2p running like 3-9 boxes...feels like they might be getting too much for free at that point. Especially the way server load is currently. This is probably very unlikely happening anyways, most people multi-boxing are doing it for efficiency and wouldn't do it then gimp themselves by not paying for VIP. I know I wouldn't Also you can still play the game without multiboxing...just need more friends...you probably have a friend or 2 that are at least dual boxing in-game right now or a clan that has a box or 2 buffers they'd share! If you prefer to solo grind though I can't imagine doing it without at least 1 box following you around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverArrow Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 17 minutes ago, RealityCheck said: Exactly! not that much, if they charge like 1$ fpr dualboxe, most of the people will pay it and we still have the problem. The only way to make this work is to gat back to the old subsciption fee unfortunately. If they do it i am leaving because i am not paying 2 full subcription monthly. But the server will balance back. It works well for WoW and FF14 anf they have millions of players AND A GOOD MANAGEMENT TEAM OBVIOUSLY!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeCee Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Quote Also you can still play the game without multiboxing...just need more friends...you probably have a friend or 2 that are at least dual boxing in-game right now or a clan that has a box or 2 buffers they'd share! If you prefer to solo grind though I can't imagine doing it without at least 1 box following you around. I don't want f2p people to leave either. But we can't disincentivize them either. Hey, you can play for free but not as well as the others who were already having the benefits of xp boosts and shots. Better make friends cause you gonna need it. Some would say, well that's fair, the others are paying. But why bother even trying at that point. Might as well play Live. Technically it's possible to get the gear to fight the top guys, but is it really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDawg Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 17 minutes ago, DeeCee said: I don't want f2p people to leave either. But we can't disincentivize them either. Hey, you can play for free but not as well as the others who were already having the benefits of xp boosts and shots. Better make friends cause you gonna need it. Some would say, well that's fair, the others are paying. But why bother even trying at that point. Might as well play Live. Technically it's possible to get the gear to fight the top guys, but is it really? You do know it's always been like that though right? I mean even when L2 first came out and it was subscription based...the people that multibox had to pay extra lol. Not trying to lose free2play players by any means but you can't always have your cake and eat it too. If you're that dedicated to run multiple accts you need to show some support lol. Still cheaper than subscription base if they allow you to have 1 free and additional have to be VIP. Throw $10 a month on your 2nd acct only and make those people boxing 9 have to manage VIP on 8 of em! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixa Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 It will instakill the servers. I'd suggest to get rid of that undocumented VIP feature and let everyone wait his/her turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medeoan Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 52 minutes ago, RealityCheck said: Yeah 1$ per month for an extra box is a hellap2w. If you have to pay to gain reasonable access to the game, then NC Soft would be in violation of false advertising laws. The game is billed as "Truly Free." Sure you could still play the game for free. However, if the delay to be able to get in goes beyond what can be considered reasonable only for free players, while pay players get in with no delay, then it becomes fairly easy to argue that NC Soft has violated US laws in a court case. This can lead to both civil lawsuits and criminal suits. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and my words should not be taken as legal fact. I am sure a properly certified attorney with experience and knowledge of advertisement law could provide a much more in depth and accurate explanation of implications of what you propose. That said, what you suggest has other negative ramifications. Many people won't pay up. This means the actual player pool will decrease while NC Soft will likely see very little if any increase in revenue. You might think, "Well what is so bad about that? Less people trying to get in my way then." To that I say the following: Look at the current state of the game. Look at live. Now compare it to other MMOs out there. This game is for all intents and purposes been comatose and on life support for almost a decade now. Look at NC Soft's track record with other MMOs that get too low. They do not have problems pulling the plug if they think that is the more cost effective solution. Look at the state of the game from a community standpoint? How much fresh blood do you see in the game? How often does things boil down to the same stale set of people squaring off against each other. How often are the social and political dynamics actually changing? Can you truly say you are happy if you are top dawg of tiny pool of players? Or would you rather be top dawg of a large ocean of players? Figure out what you would like to get out of this game. I would like to compare this game to professional sports to help illustrate why free players, like myself, can be so valuable: Take any professional sports league. US-NFL (US Football), MLB (Baseball), NBA (Basketball), NHL (Hockey), FIFA (US Soccer, Rest of the Planet Football). Pick any of those sports. The athletes who play them are the elite of the elite. They are able to make their bodies perform at levels that truly astounding and impressive. People LOVE to go see them play. People pay big money to watch first hand. People also like to watch for free. Those elite athletes are the elite gamers who can perform at the highest levels. The analogy isn't fully 1 to 1 as sometimes the Wallet Warriors can have elite skills as well. It is rare, but possible. Most elites won't pay because they know their skills are good enough that they can rely on that alone to get to the top quickly and stay there. Wallet Warriors are the fans who pay big box for the best seats in the house. They pay to be able to hob knob with the elites as well. They often join with the elites since they can help the elites go even higher and know that the elites will bring them along for the ride. Most people do not see this in the open with sports since it happens behind closed doors. The people in the stands are the casuals willing to spend small money to watch, cheer on, and admire the elites (and the Wallet Warriors with them) from afar. The free people are also important because of another group of payers. The advertisers. Simply because I don't purchase a ticket to go watch my Astros beat down on the Red Sox doesn't mean I don't contribute to their bottom line. I do because I see the advertisements others pay to post. This pays off because every now and then I or someone else will head that advertisement and go patronize the advertiser who paid the elites for that chance to advertise. I know that is large paragraph, so to summarize. Professional Athletes = Pro high skill gamers Big Spender Team Supporters, Owners, Other Business Connects = Wallet Warriors (aka Land-Whales), many who pay to win and gain access to hang out with the Pros when they lack to the skills to do otherwise Casual Fans in the Stands = Casual gamers who occasionally support the game. Many of whom admire the Pros either actively or passively. Think of these as the upper middle class upon whom the Pros stand in order stand out. Good Pros praise the casuals for their support. These players help stroke the egos and drive of the Pros and Wallet Warriors alike. Casual Fans at Home and Elsewhere = Free gamers who don't pay directly to the sport but still like to watch. I may not pay for VIP, but I still support the game via other indirect means. This group of players also support the Pros and the Wallet Warriors in the same way that the Casual paying gamers do. Usually the amount of support they can provide is less, but support they still provide. Most importantly the enlarge the audience the Pros get to show off in front of. This keeps the game healthy by helping to continue to bring attention to it and drive development of the game. As long as the experience is positive, people in this crowd will generally convert to Casual Paying Fans in due time. This category is the most important of all for long term sustainable growth. Killing this category, as you would suggest, destroys long term sustainable growth. In short, your idea would put Lineage II Classic into an early grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medeoan Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 48 minutes ago, JDawg said: You do know it's always been like that though right? I mean even when L2 first came out and it was subscription based...the people that multibox had to pay extra lol. Not trying to lose free2play players by any means but you can't always have your cake and eat it too. If you're that dedicated to run multiple accts you need to show some support lol. Still cheaper than subscription base if they allow you to have 1 free and additional have to be VIP. Throw $10 a month on your 2nd acct only and make those people boxing 9 have to manage VIP on 8 of em! At the peak of my MMO gaming time, I had 3 paying subs for Lineage II, 3 paying subs for EvE Online, a sub for World of Warcraft, and a free account with Guild Wars. I had all of that at the same time. It. Gets. Expensive. FAST!! I would be willing to consider a sub-based only server, however I would not have the same prospects for its success, health, and longevity depending on how much is charged. As it stands, 3 boxes is actually kinda ideal. It lets you play one character, have another as a perma shop in town, and then the 3rd you can either use to support yourself in the field or further increase your market presence in the game economy. Boxing isn't the issue, but if you make it too hard, then it can become an issue. The real issue is: 1) Automated Fishing. NC Soft has actually made part of the game play itself for you. After fighting bots for so long, to even make such a thing is a really two faced thing to do. Remove the fishing automation. 2) Servers either need more capacity, more servers at time zones proper for the player base, and/or more servers for sheer amount of people who are interested in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDawg Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Lol woah Medeoan, sorry I can't even quote that first reply way too long. Not only that but it goes off subject quite a bit? We're talking about paying for additional accounts not arguing about the queue times for f2p players. It's bad right now in regards to the queue. "if the delay to be able to get in goes beyond what can be considered reasonable only for free players, while pay players get in with no delay, then it becomes fairly easy to argue that NC Soft has violated US laws in a court case. " This is not what we're talking about. Let's try to define "reasonable access" to a free 2 play game. To me that's any game you can login to and play "Fully" with no content restrictions. To you it sounds like it means, you should be able to login and play as many instances of the game as you want "Fully" with no content restrictions for free and that is considered "reasonable access"? Let's put it in other terms...I have a Deli near my house that offers free soft serve ice cream to it's paying customers. I take my children there and after they eat their lunch they're allowed to have 1 free ice cream cone. There is no sign that say's you can't have seconds or thirds of said free ice cream. You just don't do it, even my kids know that. Companies have never had a problem with multi-boxing because it meant more money in their pockets so why not if some dude wants to play 9 characters and form his own CP let em'. The fact that the person had to pay more also prevented it from getting too out of hand as not many people would opt to spend that kind of money. What benefit does NCSoft have now for letting the same thing happen on a F2P model? Inflated numbers - a "healthy" population of boxes paying nothing? Spend more on better servers to accommodate f2p boxes? lol don't be that guy, you seem intelligent probably make a decent living. I get 1 free account full access no restrictions "truly free". I do agree with you on automated fishing though, but I think if they fixed all the multi-accts afk abusing it that might clear it up without killing automated fishing for all. I've yet to try fishing but I know a lot of people like it and I'm interested in trying it out myself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medeoan Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 5 minutes ago, JDawg said: Lol woah Medeoan, sorry I can't even quote that first reply way too long. Not only that but it goes off subject quite a bit? We're talking about paying for additional accounts not arguing about the queue times for f2p players. It's bad right now in regards to the queue. "if the delay to be able to get in goes beyond what can be considered reasonable only for free players, while pay players get in with no delay, then it becomes fairly easy to argue that NC Soft has violated US laws in a court case. " This is not what we're talking about. Let's try to define "reasonable access" to a free 2 play game. To me that's any game you can login to and play "Fully" with no content restrictions. To you it sounds like it means, you should be able to login and play as many instances of the game as you want "Fully" with no content restrictions for free and that is considered "reasonable access"? Let's put it other terms...I have a Deli near my house that offers free soft serve ice cream to it's paying customers. I take my children there and after they eat their lunch they're allowed to have 1 free ice cream cone. There is no sign that say's you can't have seconds or thirds of said free ice cream. You just don't do it, even my kids know that. Companies have never had a problem with multi-boxing because it meant more money in their pockets so why not if some dude wants to play 9 characters and form his own CP let em'. The fact that the person had to pay more also prevented it from getting too out of hand as not many people would opt to spend that kind of money. What benefit does NCSoft have now for letting the same thing happen on a F2P model? Inflated numbers - a "healthy" population of boxes paying nothing? Spend more on better servers to accommodate f2p boxes? lol don't be that guy, you seem intelligent probably make a decent living. I get 1 free account full access no restrictions "truly free". I do agree with you on automated fishing though, but I think if they fixed all the multi-accts afk abusing it that might clear it up without killing automated fishing for all. I've yet to try fishing but I know a lot of people like it and I'm interested in trying it out myself! I'm not talking about the que. I was referring to how important the free to play players are to the good health and well be'in of a games community and how his suggestion would cause irreparable harm to it. I was likening the free to play players as the people who watch sports at home and support their favorite teams other ways besides directly purchasing tickets, while the pay to win (Wallet Warriors / Land Whale) crowd are the people that pay out the nose to go watch games in person. He wants to restrict free players to 1 client. If we want more than 1 client we'd have to pay, according to his suggestion. That can be construed as false advertising if NC Soft was to take that stance. There are other ways to connect more than 1 client of course, I personally have 3 modern computers I can use if I absolutely had to. The question y'all should be asking in the first place is, "Why is it more efficient to play with multiple boxes?" Very few games are actually that way. Those that are tend to be Sand Box MMOs. Theme Park MMOs, like WoW, FF14, and ESO (Elder Scrolls Online), tend to be more efficient with one account per player. In both kinds of MMO grouping up with others is the ultimate in efficiency. However the population has to support it. Lineage II hasn't had a healthy size of player base in over 10 years. This only encourages multiboxing even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDawg Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Medeoan said: I'm not talking about the que. I was referring to how important the free to play players are to the good health and well be'in of a games community and how his suggestion would cause irreparable harm to it. I was likening the free to play players as the people who watch sports at home and support their favorite teams other ways besides directly purchasing tickets, while the pay to win (Wallet Warriors / Land Whale) crowd are the people that pay out the nose to go watch games in person. He wants to restrict free players to 1 client. If we want more than 1 client we'd have to pay, according to his suggestion. That can be construed as false advertising if NC Soft was to take that stance. There are other ways to connect more than 1 client of course, I personally have 3 modern computers I can use if I absolutely had to. The question y'all should be asking in the first place is, "Why is it more efficient to play with multiple boxes?" Very few games are actually that way. Those that are tend to be Sand Box MMOs. Theme Park MMOs, like WoW, FF14, and ESO (Elder Scrolls Online), tend to be more efficient with one account per player. In both kinds of MMO grouping up with others is the ultimate in efficiency. However the population has to support it. Lineage II hasn't had a healthy size of player base in over 10 years. This only encourages multiboxing even more. I agree with you then on how important the free to play players are to health of server, to be honest when you started comparing to professional sports I started skimming through the rest of your post. L2 has always been more efficient to play with multiple boxes, not a huge fan of it myself but it's the way it is. We could argue that it's also more efficient to play with VIP4 though too but you have to pay for that as well but that's ok...not unfair? What if they changed it so everyone gets VIP4 buffs but you had to pay for xtra accounts? What reason is there for anyone not to run at least 1-2 boxes now? Before it was the added cost, and possibly PC limitations but everyone's hardware has gotten better considerably in the last 15 years...I can run 3 instances without breaking a sweat on my PC. It's affecting queue and honestly most people just hate seeing so many boxes on their servers - it was tolerated though because those people paid extra for that efficiency. It just seems like a poor business model, and this game is worse because the want/need to multi-box is greater by design than on a lot of other F2P models lol. I'm dual boxing an archer and prophet myself, and I've got a 3rd that i'm not really using yet...i'm definitely not against multi-boxing. Just don't want it to get out of hand, right now people are VIP'ing their boxes just to get em ahead of queue, once that's fixed though - I see a lot more boxes going up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medeoan Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 I could run 3 boxes 15 years ago without breaking a sweat. As you pointed out, computers have improved dramatically over the years. That begs the question, why has capacity on the servers remained so low for so long. I wouldn't call VIP4 efficient but that is a side topic. You are right to say the problems really lie with the decisions on both game design and business model that NC Soft made 15+ years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDawg Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 I'm for this because of the F2P players and the problem with the queue. Not because I want to pay to use multiple accounts, I bought pre-launch packs for all my accounts. The VIP buffs alone is benefit enough to me to pay, so I'll probably drop some money on them each month just to keep that up. Not going to whale out by any means but I am more casual - grown man now lol don't have as much time to grind, thus for me the benefits help with efficiency. I feel bad for f2p players that can't get on though, not so much that i'm going to log off my box to give them a spot lol - but if there are f2p people out there staying logged in 24/7 with multiple accounts afk shopping and fishing to not lose their spot in queue that seems like a problem. I don't stay logged in, and if I did it would only be with 1 account for afk shop. Hopefully NC just upgrades their servers or adds more with free transfers maybe? Then everyone is a winner! If they don't just get flooded with more boxes! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medeoan Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Personally, I run 3 accounts but not for the purposes of having a private group. I have a dwarf shop to help generate passive income. A separate account for a perma buy/sell shop. Then there is my main account with my BD. I really much prefer grouping with others if I can find a party that I can mesh with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KafukaFura Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 the problem are not the non vip, are the fishing ones and adena sellers and afks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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