Doubt: Mechanics Defense vs. HP (When is the best choice?)

[Arcanjo]

It is common to have skills that give max_hp or pdef_mdef, so the question is simple, how does this ratio work?

• https://l2wiki.com/Dual_-_P._Def./M._Def._Increase
• https://l2wiki.com/Dual_-_Max_HP_Increase
  • Source: https://l2wiki.com/Dualclass

Look at the proportion:

• 3% P/M Def. vs 6% Max HP
• 6% P/M Def. vs 12% Max HP
• 9% P/M Def. vs 18% Max HP
• 12% P/M Def. vs 24% Max HP

So I can consider that 3% of physical defense or magic, is equivalent to 6% of hp? considering that this bonus is in fact proportional, when to choose defense and when to choose maximum life?  I was told that physical defense only pays off when P.Def is greater than 8K and M.def is greater than 6 or 7K (I do not recall here).

We have the situation of the Skills "Light of Blessing" and "Light of Protection", while one has chance to add + 40% P / M def. the other can heal (save 5K trick) look proproção: 40% P / M def vs. 5K healing. Making the best decision between HP (Cure or Max) and Defense is basically a challenge, one that can be circumvented with some knowledge, which helps in decision making.

• https://l2wiki.com/Dual_-_Light_of_Blessing
• https://l2wiki.com/Dual_-_Light_of_Protection

 

[Znipo]

Old def / new defense = % of how muchess dmg you take.

Same for physical and magical.

 

I.e if you take 10.000 damage with 5k def... Then boost your def to 8000

5000/8000 = 0.625

0.625*10000 = 6250 damage

Is the same for all defense, doesnt matter if 6000 defense or 20000.

 

3% increase can never pass 3% less damage, if its better than 6% HP you decide.

40% increase skill is pretty bad, good if it triggers but no way to build a char (rely on luck to win? No good)

The heal skill is also bad. For obvious reasons.

 

HP increase or physical/mental trait is the way to go, depending on gear, party etc. Mix these as you please.

 

P.S 3% increase will most likely only result in ~2% actual increase, due to how the game stacks things.

HP is similar, 6% HP shouldnt give you 6%, but slightly less.

[Astarot]

1 hour ago, Znipo said:

Old def / new defense = % of how muchess dmg you take.

Same for physical and magical.

 

I.e if you take 10.000 damage with 5k def... Then boost your def to 8000

5000/8000 = 0.625

0.625*10000 = 6250 damage

Is the same for all defense, doesnt matter if 6000 defense or 20000.

 

3% increase can never pass 3% less damage, if its better than 6% HP you decide.

40% increase skill is pretty bad, good if it triggers but no way to build a char (rely on luck to win? No good)

The heal skill is also bad. For obvious reasons.

 

HP increase or physical/mental trait is the way to go, depending on gear, party etc. Mix these as you please.

 

P.S 3% increase will most likely only result in ~2% actual increase, due to how the game stacks things.

HP is similar, 6% HP shouldnt give you 6%, but slightly less.

Why the 8K Defense? Where did you get this value from? (Was it not only 5K? )

The archangel tested the two cases defense and max hp, he passed me the actual values, the problem he does not know which one compensates the most (in his case).

• 6% max hp = +1823hp
• 3% P/M def = 168/139 ( respectively )

For example pdef 168, is equal to how many percent harm reduction?

Triger that increases 40% P / Mdef (lasts 15 seconds) is to count the same luck, but it seems that it ALWAYS activates that the character receives a fixed value of damage (not active for low values), so if the character does not survive to withstand the beating he dies before activating.
- At this point you agree that Knight, Healer and ISS could use this type of passive, since they usually bear many consecutive damages? may be Necro(transfer Pain), Mage with (Mana shield) ...

[Arcanjo]

5 hours ago, Znipo said:

I.e if you take 10.000 damage with 5k def... Then boost your def to 8000

5000/8000 = 0.625

0.625*10000 = 6250 damage

Is the same for all defense, doesnt matter if 6000 defense or 20000.

 

I did not write this account.
I get 10k of damage and I have 5k of defense, okay! But where did these 8k come from?

[Znipo]

It was an example to show you how damage calculation works.

There is no way to say for example "500 p def will reduce damage by..." because it depends on how much p. Def you have to begin with, so i explained how it works.

 

And no 40% trigger is bad cause you have to get lucky to even trigger it, you cant build a character on luck.

 

Lets pretend you have 10000 p def now, and put 3% = 10300 p def. (Will be less actually for reason i said in previous post, but ill assume 3% in this example)

So take old defense and divide it with new defense = 10000 / 10300 = ~0.97.

Means you take 3% less damage, compared to what you took on 10000 p def.

So if someone hit you 20000 damage when you have 10k p def, they would make 3% less if you had 10300 P. Def.

 

 

[Rodah]

26 minutes ago, Znipo said:

It was an example to show you how damage calculation works.

There is no way to say "500 p def will reduce damage by..." so i explained how it works.

 

Lets pretend you have 10000 p def now, and put 3% = 10300 p def. (Will be less actually for reason i said in previous post, but ill assume 3% in this example)

So take old defense and divide it with new defense = 10000 / 10300 = ~0.97.

Means you take 3% less damage, compared to what you took on 10000 p def.

So if someone hit you 20000 damage when you have 10k p def, they would make 3% less if you had 10300 P. Def.

 

 

I suppose technically this is correct but, you could only observe this scenario with a HIGHLY controlled test.  In reality, your received damage in respect to a 3% increase in PDef will vary wildly based on other factors; mainly, element attack/defense, PvP attack/defense and, pure dmg reduction (Nevit Cloak/Dandy).

Just to illustrate this point consider this scenario:

You have 10k PDef and 0 element defense.  Your attacker has 20k P.Attack and 500 element attack.

30% (roughly) of his damage will come from his element attack.  If you increase your PDef by 3% (300) you will still receive the same amount of damage from your attackers element attack; it WILL NOT drop by 3%.  This means your total received damage will not be 3% less (obviously).  The same holds true for the other factors I mentioned (PvP attack defense / total dmg reduction).  

I know it gets confusing and, I don't "completely" understand how dmg is formulated; there are just too many factors to consider.  I have run extensive tests on element attack/defense in PvP so I can comment on that with some degree of certainty.

Having said that; as far as damage reduction is concerned, I firmly believe the following;

Total Dmg Reduction > PvP/PvE Dmg Reduction > Element Defense / PDef  

[Znipo]

It isnt technically correct - it is correct.

All damage is added at same time, simple. this is true for attribute aswell as pvp reduction thing.

Your extensive tests seem to be wrong

 

Logged my tyrr to show you real numbers,

Without diamond, 7628 p def, took 192 damage.

With diamond, 8573 p def, took 170 damage.

7628/8573 = 0.889, multiply this with 192 = 170.

If you were right with your "P. def only lowers non attribute attacks, the damage from attribute is unaffected", my calculation above would be off by a few % and the 170 would be higher, it clearly is not

[Astarot]

29 minutes ago, Znipo said:

....

 

45 minutes ago, Rodah said:

...

 

But the big question remains "12% P / M Def." is equivalent to having more "24% Max HP"? (quoted in the first post)?

 

[Znipo]

5 minutes ago, Astarot said:

 

 

But the big question remains "12% P / M Def." is equivalent to having more "24% Max HP"? (quoted in the first post)?

 

Go with HP, P. Def is better at lower levels (due to HP not stacking up high) but once you get 40k+ HP, HP is best.

[Astarot]

14 minutes ago, Znipo said:

Go with HP, P. Def is better at lower levels (due to HP not stacking up high) but once you get 40k+ HP, HP is best.

- I'm 100 and have 42K of life now.
- I have max hp: 40% (Weapon) + 9% (AP)
- "I did not choose anything in my Dual-Skill, I have 0 Dyes.
Recommend Dual-Max HP 24%?

First thing I think and an archer, a dagger sending a critical of 100k, that with p / .def 40K battery will hit a 50K with max hp. I question something similar to m.def
You want a real example?
Ultimate Defense (summon or Knight), do not increase hp maxima, but rather the P / M.def in high values like 4k + and even with 5k of life the life of them does not go away.

[Znipo]

10 minutes ago, Astarot said:

- I'm 100 and have 42K of life now.
- I have max hp: 40% (Weapon) + 9% (AP)
- "I did not choose anything in my Dual-Skill, I have 0 Dyes.
Recommend Dual-Max HP 24%?

First thing I think and an archer, a dagger sending a critical of 100k, that with p / .def 40K battery will hit a 50K with max hp. I question something similar to m.def
You want a real example?
Ultimate Defense (summon or Knight), do not increase hp maxima, but rather the P / M.def in high values like 4k + and even with 5k of life the life of them does not go away.

A trigger for 40% defense is useless as its not active all the time, you cant build your char around luck - yes its OP when its on - after that? completely useless.

as ive said, go with HP, it will be better for both pve/pvp.

 

If you go with 12% p def/m def, you will take maybe 9% less damage.

If you take HP, you will have ~20% more HP, obviously better than 9% less damage.

[Astarot]

1 minute ago, Znipo said:

A trigger for 40% defense is useless as its not active all the time, you cant build your char around luck - yes its OP when its on - after that? completely useless.

as ive said, go with HP, it will be better for both pve/pvp.

 

But 12% w / m fixed defense that does not depend on luck
Seee:

• https://l2wiki.com/Dual_-_P._Def./M._Def._Increase
• https://l2wiki.com/Dual_-_Max_HP_Increase
  • Source: https://l2wiki.com/Dualclass

[Znipo]

Just now, Astarot said:

But 12% w / m fixed defense that does not depend on luck
Seee:

• https://l2wiki.com/Dual_-_P._Def./M._Def._Increase
• https://l2wiki.com/Dual_-_Max_HP_Increase
  • Source: https://l2wiki.com/Dualclass

Just updated posts before you replied

[Rodah]

1 hour ago, Znipo said:

It isnt technically correct - it is correct.

All damage is added at same time, simple. this is true for attribute aswell as pvp reduction thing.

Your extensive tests seem to be wrong

 

Logged my tyrr to show you real numbers,

Without diamond, 7628 p def, took 192 damage.

With diamond, 8573 p def, took 170 damage.

7628/8573 = 0.889, multiply this with 192 = 170.

If you were right with your "P. def only lowers non attribute attacks, the damage from attribute is unaffected", my calculation above would be off by a few % and the 170 would be higher, it clearly is not

 

Well to be fair I only tested damage increase based on adding/removing element defense.  Maybe I'll log on later and perform some more test with my Tyrr as well. 

 

[Arcanjo]

Thanks to the debate I am beginning to understand better, and I am already thanking the support in this doubt.

I have 40K of life and 7k of P.def and I get 40k of damage (critical, from an archer), on the spot. Considering 1 critical hit:
- In this case if 12% fixed in p.def, maybe receive 36k (-9% in damage), I would be alive with 4k of life!
- If I increase my life by 24% it should be a 6k more life of 46k final, in the end I would still have 6k.

Does p.f appear to be more interesting against consecutive hits, and HP against high hits (explosives) or would it be the reverse?

[Znipo]

9 minutes ago, Arcanjo said:

Thanks to the debate I am beginning to understand better, and I am already thanking the support in this doubt.

I have 40K of life and 7k of P.def and I get 40k of damage (critical, from an archer), on the spot. Considering 1 critical hit:
- In this case if 12% fixed in p.def, maybe receive 36k (-9% in damage), I would be alive with 4k of life!
- If I increase my life by 24% it should be a 6k more life of 46k final, in the end I would still have 6k.

Does p.f appear to be more interesting against consecutive hits, and HP against high hits (explosives) or would it be the reverse?

Exactly, you would end with more HP using the HP route, compared to using P. Def route.

This is pretty much always the best one, except at lower levels when you have very low HP.

[Asachiara]

You are close there is a bit of trickery in dmg received. You are getting right to start comparing the benefits of "next step" in skills or equip.

In pdef as dmg reduction applies the following  fixed pdef adds > fixed % dmg reduction > % pdef adds. Let me explain a bit 

for our example we use. Char has 1000 pdef from only armor on (no passives skills nothing) just lvl 1 char no skill taken nothing we attack with 100000k attack power (not patak! it is like final attack power with all shoulshots everything in the formula)

- fixed % dmg reduction. Simple it is. if i attack this char with setup i deal 100 dmg to his 1000 pdef abd that char i target get items with -10% dmg recieced. my next this will be 90. This rduction is not affected by debuffs. and it is calculated after the final dmg was concluded attack/defense formula. So i receive 90 dmg in this case. I get 30% pdef decrease debuff i get -10% dmg coming against 700 pdef. 1000*0.7= 700. Dmg taken 142.87 then -10% = 128.57

- Fxied pdef add. Why 2nd best. Lets take we got item which adds fixed 100 pdef. so i equip it and get 1100 pdef. dmg reduce appropriately BUT! fixed addons on debuffs/hps/patak are not subject of debuff. So if i get 30% pdef reduction debuff. Only Pdef coming from Armor will be reduced mean 1000*0.70+100=700+100=800. not 1100*0.7=770. I get 125 dmg 

- % increase It is ok it does what it does. So if i have 1000 pdef and i add item that gives 10% pdef. i go to 1100 pdef. Which also reduce dmg appropriately BUT it is subject of debuff. So if i get 30% pdef reduction debuff. i get 1100*0.7= 770. 129.7dmg i get

When we speak about HP. HP build with low pdef (defence overall) will work only in short term. In hard location you will get 1 shot with 120k HP if your pdef is 8000k or so.

My recommendation is get HP (if u are support char) AP/SAs and CON dyes while getting Anakim talisman, Abundance talisman (best high grare lvl 1) and some belt like CH belt/Moneky belt or olly pve -7% dmgm, Diamon/Pearl lvl 2/3. So stack fixed pdef+% dmg reduction like moneky belt with HP build.

 

[Asachiara]

Ahhhh one important thing :D. Trickery is also how buffs and items that adds % of pdef works.

 

People thinks that if they get 10% pdef talisman they will get 10% pdef what means 10% dmg less. On lvl 1 char it is true mor or less on lvl 102 toons is not true.(not the way u expect).

Buff and talismans with +% pdef affect only pdef coming from armor stat. PAssives (like passive robe mastery says +3000 pdef if wearing robe) are not affected. 

So i got 11k pdef i got passive with +3000 pdef i got Diamon 3 with 1000 pdef and i got Anakim talisman with 700 pdef no i just received got 10% pdef talisman what will happen?

(11000-3000-1000-700)*1.1+(3000+1000+700)=11630 pdef  not 12100...

Same applies to HP. 24% HP of dual class skill is counted on CON/Class base  HP. So it will ignore fixed HP additionson passives or items

 

 

 

[Arcanjo]

On 29/01/2018 at 10:26 AM, Irub said:

 

You should fix your AP first, it's all wrong. You haven't taken full advantage of your AP and now you are wasting your dual class skills to compensate for that. Get yourself a weapon with 2SA for HP, AP full HP + def and then put defence on dual class skills.

PS: If your p def is bad no matter how much you have boosted your HP it wont matter in the end. That's why you shouldn't consider 1 more important than the other and balance it.

Like this? (I'm Doomcryer):

• 3 Guardian's body | 3 Guardian's elemental Cover| 3 Guardian's Magic Barier
• 2 Guardian's Armor Defense
• 4 Guardian's Life |
• 1 Guardian's Death Shield

it is no use saying that it is bad, without saying what would be right, it is like asking a blind man to hit the road, because he missed the previous one without guiding.  ^^

How much P / Mdef do I have to have to consider a good defense to invest in HP?

[Znipo]

9 hours ago, Arcanjo said:

Like this? (I'm Doomcryer):

• 3 Guardian's body | 3 Guardian's elemental Cover| 3 Guardian's Magic Barier
• 2 Guardian's Armor Defense
• 4 Guardian's Life |
• 1 Guardian's Death Shield

it is no use saying that it is bad, without saying what would be right, it is like asking a blind man to hit the road, because he missed the previous one without guiding.  ^^

How much P / Mdef do I have to have to consider a good defense to invest in HP?

I think we ve all explained now. 

HP > Def at all times, the dmg reduction is linear as we have shown. 3% def = 3% less damage. 

Def is better if you somehow reach HP cap, which you wont. 

[Ferine]

There still seems to be some confusion here, so I'll re-iterate what some other posters have said along with my tests done previously (I'm sure no mechanics have changed since then).

 

P.def calculation alone is roughly = (Base P.def + Armor bonus * percentage P.def boosts) + fixed P.def boosts.

Adding more % p.def boosts will give less actual % boost than it says. This is due to only boosting the p.def from your armor, not fixed p.def from passives/items such as diamond etc. This is the same for all stats.

 

Damage Calculation Roughly = (P.atk/P.def)*(element atk/element def)*dmg boosts*dmg reductions.

Of course that's not the exact calculation, but it works linearly like that.

 

• If you change P.def or P.atk by 3% total without changing other stats, then damage will change by 3%. 
• If you add 30 more element or remove 30 element whilst having less than max element attack/defense boost, then damage will change by 3%.
• If you change damage reduction or boost by 3%, then damage will change by 3%

 

Personally I've always preferred P.def/M.def boosts as in theory less damage over time is easier to outheal to survive. However the game currently favours massive spike damage, so you really need the HP to survive. The boosts from HP are also greater than those from P.def, so it scales much more effectively. This makes HP much more preferable at the moment, especially the spike damage issue.

 

(Obviously you'll want to stack all stats as much as possible anyway)