Is it safe to invest time/money ?

[MartyDeadly]

Hi there,

 

I am an old player that used to play at Bartz, Zaken, Chronos and atm Im playing at TI and I have serious doubts that the investment of time/money that Im making is safe or not and I`ll explain why.

 

1 - A friend of mine got banned for no reason. Some of you may think: It is ok, NCsoft is going to fix it.

2 - Then he sent an e-mail to NCsoft and after days he received an answer with 0 info about this issue. Some of you may think: Its ok, sometimes these kinda stuff takes days.

3 - After the lazy answer from NCsoft he sent another e-mail asking the support team to at least tell him what he did that was illegal ( maybe using teamspeak or l2wiki while playing ). Some of you may think: Its common to get a automatically answer

4- The answer from NCsoft was: We are not going to tell you about your illegal action but you did something wrong and we are not going to remove u from the ban list.

 I could keep the sarcasm and the ridiculous enumerations for hours but my point is :

 

IF THEY ARE BANNING PEOPLE FOR NO REASON THEN I MAY BE THE NEXT LOTTERY TICKET WINNER.

 

I saw other posts from people that I don't even know stating the same situation. 

 

And before the trolls starts posting things that will not help anyone I would like to be as clear as water that this concerns all of us because we all may suffer from NCsoft Russian Roulette.

 

I just hope that the support team gives a honest answer at this post so that everyone can know if it is safe to invest time and money here or if we should just shut up and accept or leave.

 

Best Regards,

 

Marty

[Murad]

Maybe tell your friend to read the terms of service if he doesn't want to get banned.

[Oeste]

I have a hard time to believe the bans are random, I simply don't believe they are. Departing from there I would say, keeping your account safe is your job, if you don't: bot, don't use non allowed hardware to automate gameplay, don't account share (including using power-leveling services), don't RMT or in any other way engage in activities that are against the EULA, your account should be safe.

Now, I know people always say: "I don't do any of those things", while I believe most of these are BS statements, (I've said it before "cheaters are always liars" who will say anything to get off the hook), I would have to agree that some bans (a very low number) might be bona fide errors. For example, if you have software installed that inadvertenly interacts with the game that might cause a ban, you will need to make a thorough revision of your setup to make sure there is nothing causing the problem and, if there is, you will have to provide solid evidence to NC about it.

My interpretation of why they don't tell you the ban cause is simple: they want you to confess, so your arguments will give them information they might not have, for example: "oh, maybe ban is from that time when I went to pickup my Russian bride and I logged in while at the hotel in Moscow...".

Overall,  as far as I know, as long as you don't fall into plain harassment, they will always review your emails and if you have sound arguments might reverse their preliminary conclusions (and the ban). I know of multiple people who have recovered banned accounts this way. This process is not automatic, is not fast, yes you will get a lot of canned responses but THEY WILL review you case, of that I am certain, (again because I have first hand knowledge of it though many friends to whom I have even help to open tickets, etc.. cause they could not access the service on account of being banned), so that's that... 

[MartyDeadly]

3 minutes ago, Oeste said:

I have a hard time to believe the bans are random, I simply don't believe they are. Departing from there I would say, keeping your account safe is your job, if you don't: bot, don't use non allowed hardware to automate gameplay, don't account share (including using power-leveling services), don't RMT or in any other way engage in activities that are against the EULA, your account should be safe.

Now, I know people always say: "I don't do any of those things", while I believe most of these are BS statements, (I've said it before "cheaters are always liars" who will say anything to get off the hook), I would have to agree that some bans (a very low number) might be bona fide errors. For example, if you have software installed that inadvertenly interacts with the game that might cause a ban, you will need to make a thorough revision of your setup to make sure there is nothing causing the problem and, if there is, you will have to provide solid evidence to NC about it.

My interpretation of why they don't tell you the ban cause is simple: they want you to confess, so your arguments will give them information they might not have, for example: "oh, maybe ban is from that time when I went to pickup my Russian bride and I logged in while at the hotel in Moscow...".

Overall,  as far as I know, as long as you don't fall into plain harassment, they will always review your emails and if you have sound arguments might reverse their preliminary conclusions (and the ban). I know of multiple people who have recovered banned accounts this way. This process is not automatic, is not fast, yes you will get a lot of canned responses but THEY WILL review you case, of that I am certain, (again because I have first hand knowledge of it though many friends to whom I have even help to open tickets, etc.. cause they could not access the service on account of being banned), so that's that... 

If I had read your post a week ago I would just say +1 dude I totally agree with you. But after this situation with a friend of mine I beg to differ.

 

Besides he has only 2 of his 3 accounts banned. How does that make any sense ? If he were using illegal programs to play he was supposed to get all of his accounts banned.

And of course that there are some people that don't even care about using bots on an account that bought more than 15k ncoins but it seems pretty unlikely to me to say the least.

 

If NCsoft at least says: You have logged in with various IPs at the same account or something like that, he would have at least the chance to explain the situation but as his e-mails were responded with automatic responses it seems pretty unfair.

[MartyDeadly]

24 minutes ago, Murad said:

Maybe tell your friend to read the terms of service if he doesn't want to get banned.

 

I thought I had made myself clear about useless comments that won`t help the community but it seems I didn't achieve my goal.

Maybe you don't know how to read or maybe you are just looking for ways to waste people time. If the second option is the answer to my doubts, then OUTTA A BOY! YOU MADE IT!

[Oeste]

If he's only asking questions and not giving them all the information he can give, he will not go far. He needs to analyze how he used the accounts and what the causes might be and then he will get some answers. I don't know your friend's specifics and I don't need to know them, you/he will solve nothing by discussing them here. What I suggest you do is go through the process provide them with every bit of information that may have an impact on the ban.

For example: my ISP changes my IP frequently or the changes come from every time I reboot the modem here's the evidence (you can ask a question to your ISP's customer service by chat or email which u can use); this is the list of software I use that I believe might have interaction with the game software; This is a list of the hardware I use; this is... etc.. you get the idea, also mind the in game behavior: did you engage in a racist convo, did someone "gifted" you large sums of adena or high end items, did you join an awesome party that lasted 15 hours but the people where "shy" and never talked during the whole time which seemed weird but omg the XP!, etc... don't just ask for explanations (you will get none), instead  provide honest information. Eventually  they will answer: "...thanks this ban is not based on frequent ISP changes...", and then you can discard that, in the end you will get close enough to the actual reason and then you can know if it was fair or not AND most importantly you will be able to present your case for reconsideration.

[MartyDeadly]

17 minutes ago, Oeste said:

If he's only asking questions and not giving them all the information he can give, he will not go far. He needs to analyze how he used the accounts and what the causes might be and then he will get some answers. I don't know your friend's specifics and I don't need to know them, you/he will solve nothing by discussing them here. What I suggest you do is go through the process provide them with every bit of information that may have an impact on the ban.

For example: my ISP changes my IP frequently or the changes come from every time I reboot the modem here's the evidence (you can ask a question to your ISP's customer service by chat or email which u can use); this is the list of software I use that I believe might have interaction with the game software; This is a list of the hardware I use; this is... etc.. you get the idea, also mind the in game behavior: did you engage in a racist convo, did someone "gifted" you large sums of adena or high end items, did you join an awesome party that lasted 15 hours but the people where shy and never talked during the whole time, etc... don't just ask for explanations (you will get none), instead  provide honest information. Eventually  they will answer: Thanks it's not based on frequent ISP changes, and then you can discard that, in the end you will get close enough to the actual reason and then you can know if it was fair or not AND most importantly you will be able to present your case for reconsideration.

I don't mean to be a reactive kind of guy that instantly disagrees with you, especially because neither of us are going to earn something from it. And I will send your answer to this friend of mine because I`m sure doing what you advised above may help.

I do understand your perspective and it does make sense to me but let us think through this perspective:

 

In every country of the free world and in any situation the accuser is the one that has the obligation to prove that the accused did something that is illegal.

Why should this situation be any different ? And he have already said to NCsoft that he is 100% available for sending any kind of information that they may need.

 

And let us all remember that spending a lot of time and/or money in a company that may commit an error and that asks you to fix the problem is not the place where most people would like to be investing time/money. They could have at least been fair and plain to tell him we need these informations to review your issue.

 

Btw, Thanks for the help and for spending your time trying to help someone. Myself and the community really appreciate.

 

 

 

[Oeste]

3 minutes ago, MartyDeadly said:

In every country of the free world and in any situation the accuser is the one that has the obligation to prove that the accused did something that is illegal.

Why should this situation be any different ?

Simple answer:  because the rule you are describing is applicable only to formal judicial systems. This is not a court of law that is bound by a regulatory body that obliges them to act in a certain way, this is a private service provided by a private company so you don't have that right. That legal principle is usually only applicable to judicial bodies when dealing with criminal activities. In any other matters, for example when dealing with private disputes there is no such pre-requisite because it is not needed. When dealing with civil or commercial disputes, the burden of proof will fall on whomever makes the affirmation, (at least this is true for all Civil Law standard national legal systems). I am not an expert on US law, (which is a Common Law legal system), but I am a lawyer IRL and the similarities are enough.

The thing people in this forums usually get confused by, is that this is a principle applicable to everything and the truth is it is not. Private interactions are regulated by the contract entered into by the parties, as long as the contract is not illegal per se, the contract will set the rules applicable to their interactions. Our contract is the EULA and I am pretty sure, (have not read it, nor I intend to), that this specific process/situation is covered by it.

[MartyDeadly]

9 minutes ago, Oeste said:

Simple answer:  because the rule you are describing is applicable only to formal judicial systems. This is not a court of law that is bound by a regulatory body that obliges them to act in a certain way, this is a private service provided by a private company so you don't have that right. That legal principle is usually only applicable to judicial bodies when dealing with criminal activities. In any other matters, for example when dealing with private disputes there is no such pre-requisite because it is not needed. When dealing with civil or commercial disputes, the burden of proof will fall on whomever makes the affirmation, (at least this is true for all Civil Law standard national legal systems). I am not an expert on US law, (which is a Common Law legal system), but I am a lawyer IRL and the similarities are enough.

The thing people in this forums usually get confused by, is that this is a principle applicable to everything and the truth is it is not. Private interactions are regulated by the contract entered into by the parties, as long as the contract is not illegal per se, the contract will set the rules applicable to their interactions. Our contract is the EULA and I am pretty sure, (have not read it, nor I intend to), that this specific process/situation is covered by it.

If the EULA has this situation covered or not does not make any difference to regular players. We do not need to rely ourselves in technicity and we do use/buy services from a private company and this is exactly why I feel myself in the rights to open a public post on the forum because the truth is that people are getting banned for no reason and I would like to see how the company is going to react based on the feelings of player/customer about what they are doing.

 

And I quote myself :

 

I just hope that the support team gives a honest answer at this post so that everyone can know if it is safe to invest time and money here or if we should just shut up and accept or leave.

 

About the second paragraph of your answer: I am not confused about anything. The point is that if they don't mind about players discomforts about what is going on I bet some people would just accept their behavior or leave the server and go spend time/money somewhere else.

 

 

[Devoid]

@MartyDeadly the thing is, despite constant reports of people with some accounts banned (rather than all, even if the characters were always together), the reality remains that these people are simply a vocal minority. For example, I have been boxing 5-6 characters in CLASSIC and 2-6 on LIVE, keeping them online maintenance-to-maintenance and I have not been banned. The thing is, the absolute majority of players see the situation from this perspective and will immediately suspect you aren't telling the whole truth.

I would hazard a guess they may also be banning if a modified client is detected anywhere (in any drive on the computer). This would mean that they are also banning people who have no interest playing here, namely the illegal server players (and yes, I said illegal myself, this is not the p-word censor).

@Oeste political topics (including anything legislatory) are not welcome in these forums (check the code of conduct). It's best to avoid any such conversation, even when the OP is directly hinting at these topics. Take it from someone who was temporarily banned from the forums.

[MartyDeadly]

7 minutes ago, Devoid said:

@MartyDeadly the thing is, despite constant reports of people with some accounts banned (rather than all, even if the characters were always together), the reality remains that these people are simply a vocal minority. For example, I have been boxing 5-6 characters in CLASSIC and 2-6 on LIVE, keeping them online maintenance-to-maintenance and I have not been banned. The thing is, the absolute majority of players see the situation from this perspective and will immediately suspect you aren't telling the whole truth.

I would hazard a guess they may also be banning if a modified client is detected anywhere (in any drive on the computer). This would mean that they are also banning people who have no interest playing here, namely the illegal server players (and yes, I said illegal myself, this is not the p-word censor).

I totally agree with you. I didn't get banned or something like that but I`m pretty scared of the possibility to join the minority.

And the guess about banning modified clients seems possible. I will ask him that. Thanks a lot!

[Oeste]

17 minutes ago, MartyDeadly said:

"...this is exactly why I feel myself in the rights to open a public post on the forum because the truth is that people are getting banned for no reason and I would like to see how the company is going to react based on the feelings of player/customer about what they are doing..."

Never said you did not have that right, but then again as you mentioned it this is a public forum, so you asked so I answered with my oppinion, this is all you will get from players like you and I, opinions. The one thing you cannot do is post in a public forum and expect only the Devs or the CM's will answer you.

 

17 minutes ago, MartyDeadly said:

"...About the second paragraph of your answer: I am not confused about anything. The point is that if they don't mind about players discomforts about what is going on I bet some people would just accept their behavior or leave the server and go spend time/money somewhere else..."

Sorry to say, yes you are, you were asking a question about a legal principle that is not aplicable to this situation. So again, public forum, question answered. If you wanted to have a private convo with the CM's, Devs, or representatives of NCSoft this is not possible in the forums. But hey, you asked not to be trolled, I don't think I trolled you in any way, (I have never been a troll anyway), I gave you an honest answer to your questions based on my knowledge and opinion, but somehow now I feel you did not like my answers because they did not share your PoV. I don't think there more to be said here, so gl and I hope your "friend", if he's truly innocent gets their account back. Bye now. 

 

 

 

[iStanx]

Definetely not, some day u get ban for no reason

[LightRider]

@Juji & @Hime

A process change is needed. It is terrible business practice to ban someone and not provide evidence.

People invest their time and money into the company’s products and it is very disrespectful to not provide specific reasons of why they were banned or blocked.

How are we as consumers supposed to correctly appeal a ban if the company that has denied a person access to information of why they were banned supposed to reverse an incorrect decision?

We need an answer and change to this. This would also reduce the amount of threads that are started that state the person was banned for no reason.

[Oeste]

17 minutes ago, Devoid said:

@Oeste political topics (including anything legislatory) are not welcome in these forums (check the code of conduct). It's best to avoid any such conversation, even when the OP is directly hinting at these topics. Take it from someone who was temporarily banned from the forums.

I don't really care for the forums much, but I don't think there was anything political in my answer (including legislative issues), if there was and I am banned temporarily from the forums well I don't mind it. I will speak my mind in a respectful manner about any topic that catches my interest, if that's a bannable offense, ok I can live with that, thanks for the tip though. 

[Malek_Ishtar]

In France request to waive certain rights is not legal , so the acceptance of these requests waive has no value , one of them is the right of withdrawal (ask refound or internet purchases) .

The only advice i can tell you is to to inform you about the laws of your country .

[MartyDeadly]

@Oeste I am sorry if I mislead you into thinking that I were expecting to see responses only from devs or something. That wasn't the case, my apologies on that.

I had the intention to show what I was thinking. 

 

About the part that you said that I mentioned a legal principle: I didn't mention that phrase based on Law or something. I mentioned based on what I believe that is the correct thing to do, again, no technicity were on my mind while writing at a game`s forum. 

[MartyDeadly]

15 minutes ago, iStanx said:

Definetely not, some day u get ban for no reason

This is why I am worried. It could have happened to anyone

[Krissa]

NC West is not a publicly traded company, so I don't know how you were going to invest money into it.

You are not investing time or money into a recreational game. You are spending them. Otherwise, hopefully, you are going to be banned.

[MartyDeadly]

14 minutes ago, LightRider said:

@Juji & @Hime

A process change is needed. It is terrible business practice to ban someone and not provide evidence.

People invest their time and money into the company’s products and it is very disrespectful to not provide specific reasons of why they were banned or blocked.

How are we as consumers supposed to correctly appeal a ban if the company that has denied a person access to information of why they were banned supposed to reverse an incorrect decision?

We need an answer and change to this. This would also reduce the amount of threads that are started that state the person was banned for no reason.

Thanks dude. You just wrote my heart out.

[MartyDeadly]

Just now, Krissa said:

NC West is not a publicly traded company, so I don't know how you were going to invest money into it.

You are not investing time or money into a recreational game. You are spending them. Otherwise, hopefully, you are going to be banned.

Sure.  A English lesson is everything we most need atm. Outta boy! You made it too!

[iStanx]

9 minutes ago, MartyDeadly said:

This is why I am worried. It could have happened to anyone

Maybe I don't have banned character, but I've got banned account on website (can't buy anything from L2store). Imagine what waste of time and life when we especially rush to being top lvls in server (Actually I'm the highest lvl on the server) and after 1 month of total sacriface I can't buy simple exp rune. Anyway the best is asnwer from the support: I am sorry, but we will not be able to assist you with accessing an account at this time.
They don't care that I'm streaming (giving free advertise on half-dead server), I'm leading one of biggest clan on gludio. I spent much money at start.

[Krissa]

11 minutes ago, MartyDeadly said:

Sure.  A English lesson is everything we most need atm. Outta boy! You made it too!

I think what you need is not an English lesson, but a life lesson. And that's exactly what it was.

Some people don't learn, though.

[MartyDeadly]

Just now, Krissa said:

I think what you need is not an English lesson, but a life lesson. And that's exactly what it was.

Some people don't learn, though.

Sure. It was a huge life lesson. I can see clearly now the rain has gone 

[MartyDeadly]

15 minutes ago, iStanx said:

Maybe I don't have banned character, but I've got banned account on website (can't buy anything from L2store). Imagine what waste of time and life when we especially rush to being top lvls in server (Actually I'm the highest lvl on the server) and after 1 month of total sacriface I can't buy simple exp rune. Anyway the best is asnwer from the support: I am sorry, but we will not be able to assist you with accessing an account at this time.
They don't care that I'm streaming (giving free advertise on half-dead server), I'm leading one of biggest clan on gludio. I spent much money at start.

In my humble opinion that is absurd. What is going to be the compensation for NCsoft mistakes?  A mail saying: Thanks for your patience.

people who buy things from the L2 store are the ones who keep their company alive. Sometimes I wonder if they even read our complaints.