Rogue path: Daggers vs Bows

[Siersha]

I am currently a lv31 elven scout who's confused on whether to go Plains Walker or Silver Ranger. I see far too many archers and mages in the game, and almost no dagger classes whatsoever. So it leads me to want to play the path less followed.

However, daggers upon thorough inspection hardly have any merit to them at all in PvE. The only "real" argument I've seen from people is that you should play them if you think you'll have fun. But, that's something that can be said in general. Such as beating all of Pokemon with only a Magikarp (if one finds such a thing fun).

Empirically I found that:

-Daggers cost more in general to operate:

# of soul shots used per kill are significantly higher than bows, even when top C is used at 5ss per shot is taken into consideration).

-Daggers deal less damage in general:

The total time spent killing an enemy is, on average, higher than the time it takes to kill the same enemy with a bow.

-Dagger skills do not have a 100% land rate:

It is highly RNG. Though, arguably, the skills hit harder and therefore require the low land rate. However, I've found myself missing mortal blow 5 times in a row on the enemy's back. Rather frustrating.

-Daggers are nowhere near as safe as bows:

A bow can kill from a distance, and never need to get hit too many times. Daggers have the same defences as a bow (very squishy), therefore taking significant amounts of damage per kill, and isn't even compensated by a faster kill speed.

 

Why would anyone decide (other than for good fun) to choose dagger over bows?

*Arguments which involve "use a box buffer, and healer" do not apply here as I am trying to find an empirically found merit to going dagger instead of bow.

[Siersha]

Bump since I would really like to know other's thoughts on this

[Ivarrr]

my two cents

1- Daggers are far more fun on pvp than archers.

2- Daggers with a bow can function well for farming (pw over the rest, cause you crit like hell) in an archers party / raidboss

 

[Ivarrr]

oh, i forgot the last one. You have fake death as PW. <3

[xvenomx]

leathal blow must have 1 hit wonders here in interlude if not daggers are paper!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[xHaseo]

59 minutes ago, Ivarrr said:

my two cents

1- Daggers are far more fun on pvp than archers.

2- Daggers with a bow can function well for farming (pw over the rest, cause you crit like hell) in an archers party / raidboss

 

1 - True
2 - False. A dagger with a bow is not as usefull as an archer. Both damage and range are lower. In a scale from 1 to 10 you're usefull 6. But into an archer pt i'd rather take an Archer than a dagger. Also, you can use bow to kite ur enemy in PVP if they're trying to run and you're to slow...otherwise you can't have a real fight with dagger+bow vs mage/archer. 

28 minutes ago, xvenomx said:

leathal blow must have 1 hit wonders here in interlude if not daggers are paper!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No clue what this other one is saying, guess he's a illegal server rat. 

17 hours ago, Siersha said:

I am currently a lv31 elven scout who's confused on whether to go Plains Walker or Silver Ranger. I see far too many archers and mages in the game, and almost no dagger classes whatsoever. So it leads me to want to play the path less followed.

However, daggers upon thorough inspection hardly have any merit to them at all in PvE. The only "real" argument I've seen from people is that you should play them if you think you'll have fun. But, that's something that can be said in general. Such as beating all of Pokemon with only a Magikarp (if one finds such a thing fun).

Empirically I found that:

-Daggers cost more in general to operate:

# of soul shots used per kill are significantly higher than bows, even when top C is used at 5ss per shot is taken into consideration).

-Daggers deal less damage in general:

The total time spent killing an enemy is, on average, higher than the time it takes to kill the same enemy with a bow.

-Dagger skills do not have a 100% land rate:

It is highly RNG. Though, arguably, the skills hit harder and therefore require the low land rate. However, I've found myself missing mortal blow 5 times in a row on the enemy's back. Rather frustrating.

-Daggers are nowhere near as safe as bows:

A bow can kill from a distance, and never need to get hit too many times. Daggers have the same defences as a bow (very squishy), therefore taking significant amounts of damage per kill, and isn't even compensated by a faster kill speed.

 

Why would anyone decide (other than for good fun) to choose dagger over bows?

*Arguments which involve "use a box buffer, and healer" do not apply here as I am trying to find an empirically found merit to going dagger instead of bow.

You listed urself the cons of being a dagger compared to an archer. But you guys really have no clue how this game works. Otherwise you wont be saying shitty things as "Daggers are weaker than Archers". Daggers can kill you with 1 backstab. Archers can kill you with 1 hit only if you're a PR over 60 with Fatal Counter. 

Daggers can exp with a bow 'till lates 40-60s even 'cause you'll need a bow ANYWAY. Sometimes you may end up running after an enemy...maybe he's low HP but he's faster than you...so instead of letting him go you can switch to bow and hope for 2 more hits from range. 

Daggers blow rate is pretty low, reason why PW and GH are mostly played...Focus death increases ur blow rate by 60%...but actually in classic you should not feel this huge difference between the 2. I wont explain you how a dagger works with a 360° description but, more or less, blow land rate can go so high to hit almost 100%. 

Mortal blow land rate is low, around 50%, deadly blow and backstab got it higher, around 60-70%. % changes if you're front-side-back. Later on we will get Runes. If we wont get any strange thing, we will get "Othell Rune"...which can be turned into a Super Othell Rune after level 8. The SOR got "Migthy Mortal" as 'SA' and it will increase ur rate of landing blows with a dagger. 

The real difference between why picking up a dagger over an archer is : how are you gonna play? Daggers are way better than archers in a 1v1 or small scaled PVP...but archers are way better into mass pvps and sieges. Even tho, in sieges, archers are gonna lose the advantage once they are inside the castle...once inside is dagger dominion. 

Last thing. Daggers will be getting stronger with the 3rd class since they will learn their Focus buffs and also get the 3rd blow skill (Lethal blow)...after level 50-52 daggers will learn Hide and Shadow step. Even tho they will struggle a lot in the early game, daggers will be really good in the end game. If you want to play as dagger, be sure to know how to play that class and how to play. If you're brainless, go archer. 

[Ivarrr]

4 minutes ago, xHaseo said:

2 - False. A dagger with a bow is not as usefull as an archer. Both damage and range are lower. In a scale from 1 to 10 you're usefull 6. But into an archer pt i'd rather take an Archer than a dagger. Also, you can use bow to kite ur enemy in PVP if they're trying to run and you're to slow...otherwise you can't have a real fight with dagger+bow vs mage/archer. 

Daggers can exp with a bow 'till lates 40-60s even 'cause you'll need a bow ANYWAY. Sometimes you may end up running after an enemy...maybe he's low HP but he's faster than you...so instead of letting him go you can switch to bow and hope for 2 more hits from range. 

this is basically what i meant by "function well" in an archers party.

You're not an archer, you won't be dealing sh*t tons of damage, but you can contribute.

I agree with almost everything you posted, daggers are a class that needs to be mastered, they're not an f1 f2 char, and hell yeah it is a rewarding class to play.

 

[Siersha]

@xHaseo Can you clarify what you meant by "Daggers can exp with a bow till late 40-60's cause you'll need a bow ANYWAY"? Do you mean, even as a plainswalker, we should use bows upwards our late lv60's? I'd really like to go plainswalker, but I'd like to be informed before I torture myself over my decision. Thank you so much in advance!

 

[xHaseo]

1 hour ago, Siersha said:

@xHaseo Can you clarify what you meant by "Daggers can exp with a bow till late 40-60's cause you'll need a bow ANYWAY"? Do you mean, even as a plainswalker, we should use bows upwards our late lv60's? I'd really like to go plainswalker, but I'd like to be informed before I torture myself over my decision. Thank you so much in advance!

 

It's about 'Speed'. Daggers' weak point in classic is that they don't have "Shadow chase" or "Shadow dash" (or even better, Grim reaper possession if you're GH) which means you must find ur way to get closer to the enemy. THs got Dash, which allow them to rush closer to the enemy and to get them if they're trying to run away. GH and PW are faster (base speed) than a TH but they don't have Dash. This will force you to get a bow in order to start a fight (mass pvp or siege) with some shots from the distance to get closer as soon as you get the chance. Otherwise, once you engage in a (for example) 1 vs 1 and the enemy manage to get distance while low...you can switch to a bow and deal the last hit from distance. 

Otherwise you can use the bow in order to PVE to not get closer to the mobs. So you wont need the VR buff to keep urself alive and you will sustain lesser damage while PVEing...ofc...bow is a bit more expensive...but that can be very usefull for PVE...so you will need a bow anyway to improve PVE and PVP experience. 

[wildernessbox]

Just hit 40 on my dagger using both a bow and dagger. I have to say personally I like the dagger bit more but I'm also keeping a bow around for instances where it's useful.

In pve I just run around without ss with a support clannie killing 1x mobs, it's constant exp but if a little slow, tossing a bleed on each target with my dagger. Since i'm not using SS I basically make profit every hour. This isn't possible with a bow, you will be spending about 4-6k on arrows and even more on ss if you need to use them as bow ss costs go up exponentially.

Plus I end up helping out support clan mates who otherwise might end up hurting for money and drops, overall it's been a win win for me.

Today I created a macro for each of my skills that uses 1ss per skill shot, then turns them off to help speed things up.

So far in pvp I think we will do fairly well, especially at 51-55 as we get shadow step in this version which is a stunning gap closer, along with hide(an invisibility) at 51. Additionally, you have silent step at 40 that you can turn on when someone tries to drop a train on you with fake death. I think people are underestimating what other classes can do, the devs have added in choice skills much earlier for some classes which may change the overall balance.

In pvp I keep the bow around with a quick swap macro to whip it out and fire off a stun shot when people try to run. Follow that up with a slow bleed and I can pretty much kill them whenever I want. If someone wants to mess with your grind spot, but not flag, then you just flag up and dot them up with poison and bleed so they won't be able to kill mobs without going oom on their boxes or sitting down.

Most of this is just personal preference, I can't see myself going archer because it looks like the most boring af thing to play.