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KissMyKnife

Othell with Dex Setup vs Str

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KissMyKnife    14

Lets talk about this.
When i was read DEX for PVE and STR for PVP, was curious about dex vs stab damage, how much increase i see on stab, with +12 Dex, normaly i have 66 so with +12 was have 78, that must be have some diff on stab :P

in 66 i was make 2.3m on npc, i was said ok with +12 dex i will make 2.5m minimum right? it was same damage on same npc, was stab like 10 min long and the highest stab damage was 2.3m

So guys tell me why every1 say Dex for Othell on PVE if no damage increase?

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DEX doesnt amplifies damage, it increases p.skill crit rate, adding speeds/evasion
STR build using mostly for higher skill mastery trigger, which depends on users STR, another meaning for skill spam and double buff durations (pretty good when some nice skill appears for 20 sec, not 10)

In the end between two of those u have a choice, ur fine with ur skill mastery trigger rate and u want to see critical stabs, or ur taking str and getting bit slower, but in a melee-contact its became quite fine:) 

According to my tests, any of those are useful in pvp and pve, its only about what effect u want to see

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KissMyKnife    14
58 minutes ago, SpineCrusher said:

DEX doesnt amplifies damage, it increases p.skill crit rate, adding speeds/evasion
STR build using mostly for higher skill mastery trigger, which depends on users STR, another meaning for skill spam and double buff durations (pretty good when some nice skill appears for 20 sec, not 10)

In the end between two of those u have a choice, ur fine with ur skill mastery trigger rate and u want to see critical stabs, or ur taking str and getting bit slower, but in a melee-contact its became quite fine:) 

According to my tests, any of those are useful in pvp and pve, its only about what effect u want to see

p.skill crit rate? what that mean? if i increase skill rate i make more top crit? that not true i mean i was count my top 2.3m and 2.2m, was same number in 100 stab. so only 1 thing is usefull and that is Evasion. with evasion mob make more astray, so dex for not died on first shot.

1 more thing, i have str build up, right now i have 137 str, was test mastery rage dual skill and for 200 stab only 1 time was triggered, i feel triggering better on dex. i mean i was watch a othell on gc low and his  mastery rage was trigger fast on that toon, and he was have dex build up. he was have 90 dex.

 

Edited by KissMyKnife

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Vassy    22
1 hour ago, KissMyKnife said:

p.skill crit rate? what that mean? if i increase skill rate i make more top crit? that not true i mean i was count my top 2.3m and 2.2m, was same number in 100 stab. so only 1 thing is usefull and that is Evasion. with evasion mob make more astray, so dex for not died on first shot.

1 more thing, i have str build up, right now i have 137 str, was test mastery rage dual skill and for 200 stab only 1 time was triggered, i feel triggering better on dex. i mean i was watch a othell on gc low and his  mastery rage was trigger fast on that toon, and he was have dex build up. he was have 90 dex.

 

Skill critical rate means how OFTEN will your skills crits. If you have more than 75-80 dex almost every skill will be critical for you. Otherwise you need skill critical rate SA on your weapon. Better put some Dex to avoid this.

DEX also increase the chance for lethal ..half kill. Playing with only 66dex is.. bad.

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KissMyKnife    14
19 minutes ago, Vassy said:

Skill critical rate means how OFTEN will your skills crits. If you have more than 75-80 dex almost every skill will be critical for you. Otherwise you need skill critical rate SA on your weapon. Better put some Dex to avoid this.

DEX also increase the chance for lethal ..half kill. Playing with only 66dex is.. bad.

I believe you about this, but still i feel dex its not good for pve i mean ok i can make Lethal and HK that perfect, but why every1 advice dex on pve? if all field mob have immune to Lethal and HK understand now? you know that right? check all spot like gc low superior sos and elven. all mob have immune.

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Vassy    22
Just now, KissMyKnife said:

I believe you about this, but still i feel dex its not good for pve i mean ok i can make Lethal and HK that perfect, but why every1 advice dex on pve? if all field mob have immune to Lethal and HK understand now? you know that right? check all spot like gc low superior sos and elven. all mob have immune.

This is true But DEX is a must for PVP (for daggers) and it's a must for mobs before you reach 101. Meaning on low lv you need as much as possible dex. After that 85% of the mobs are immune to hk. BUT you still need your skill critical rate which is influenced by DEX. For lv 101+ 75 Dex is ok for daggers- the rest STR. 

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Vassy    22

Also have in mind that you need accuracy to be able to hit mob or player higher than your level or you will see often "avoid.. miss" in your log. Dex influence accuracy as well.

Edited by Vassy
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KissMyKnife    14
6 minutes ago, Vassy said:

This is true But DEX is a must for PVP (for daggers) and it's a must for mobs before you reach 101. Meaning on low lv you need as much as possible dex. After that 85% of the mobs are immune to hk. BUT you still need your skill critical rate which is influenced by DEX. For lv 101+ 75 Dex is ok for daggers- the rest STR. 

ok 75 i can manage that

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ZolteR    8

I've been playing Othell for quite a while now, tested different builds and made countless tests.

All I can say is, after the last Yul/Othell passive skill nerf (which nerfed our skill mastery rate from 1000% to 100%), there's no true reason to go all STR anymore. 

Today, if you put all STR, you deal a bit more damage on stabs, but the skills don't get doubled/reseted as often as before anymore. And you sacrifice a few stabs critical rate.

I believe best option is go 80 DEX and rest apply to STR.

PS: DEX doesn't influence lethals rate. Nor single daggers do that. It's a common mistake/myth to believe that. What DEX does is:

- Increase your Attack Speed which is useless for Othells since we always have it maxed out anyway.

- Increase your NORMAL Critical Rate, which Othells always have maxed out as well.

- Increase your NORMAL accuracy, which is useless for Othell since we don't hit with normal hits, we hit with skills.

- Increase your NORMAL Evasion, this one is so-so - in PvE it helps a bit to have high Evasion, specially if you are in AoE parties, but bad if you are soloing, because when you solo you need to get hit sometimes, to trigger the CC from Drum Melody. In PvP it seems to be irrelevant how much Evasion you have, since what matters usually is your Skill Evasion, different stat, activated by other skills.

- Increase your Skill Critical Rate, this is the most important and what DEX is truly needed for. At 80~ DEX almost all your stabs will be critical. Don't mistake what the system message tells you when it says every stab is a critical. A true critical will be like 2x the damage. You will know if it was a crit or not, if you test enough. With low DEX (63-66), you will notice that your stabs won't always deal 2x damage.

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KissMyKnife    14
2 hours ago, ZolteR said:

 Increase your Skill Critical Rate, this is the most important and what DEX is truly needed for. At 80~ DEX almost all your stabs will be critical. Don't mistake what the system message tells you when it says every stab is a critical. A true critical will be like 2x the damage. You will know if it was a crit or not, if you test enough. With low DEX (63-66), you will notice that your stabs won't always deal 2x damage.

Not sure what you talk here but i maybe know, i test my stab damage on npc, normaly 1.9m-2.3m, 2-3m in pom time i mostly make like hm 5 time, but this is npc so i never see double damage, but on rb sometimes i see 10% damage and normaly only 2 or 3% so rb its different i think that 10% damage you meaning?

Edited by KissMyKnife

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ZolteR    8
36 minutes ago, KissMyKnife said:

Not sure what you talk here but i maybe know, i test my stab damage on npc, normaly 1.9m-2.3m, 2-3m in pom time i mostly make like hm 5 time, but this is npc so i never see double damage, but on rb sometimes i see 10% damage and normaly only 2 or 3% so rb its different i think that 10% damage you meaning?

No, it's like, you stab for 500k (example) and sometimes you stab for 200-250k only. That's your skill critical failing. The higher the DEX, more often you will stab for 500k, and rarely for 250k.

Just an example.

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Vassy    22

Well.. after the patch I don't have any observations. But I remember that from the patch info they said mastery rate is nerfed to 400% not 100. Personally I have 80 Dex and 131 Str. I no longer use Str or Dex fish stew - the P.atk stews are better. 

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Rogue isnt a class which can be correctly counted-up in damage done to a target, just because it has ALOT options to increase it momentarily, it looks like a lightning sorceress in Diablo 2 :$ Ur hit diapasone is splitted between the lowest and highest possible damage to a target, heartbreaker triggers +30% rear damage, quite not bad boost, eh? among with cw - its 65, with easterly wind (wind rider) - more, activated self for crt damage and damage to flanks/rears adds additional amount of gap, which can increase ur damage.

Its not so hard to try to do some calculates, how do I explain this: u landing a normal hit for 5k, critical - for 10 in normal condition, crt damage and additional bonuses increasing that multiplier in same way, ur still doing x2 damage, but, according to ur boosts in skill damage+patk+crt damage u have bigger gap to make more damage (meant 10k +, lets say 30-60-90% crt damage that triggers and applies) and pretty often rogue does damage in round of 40-60% additionally, within those boosts cap. 

And I have a part of this to a guy, who told that normal accuracy doesnt affects stabs.. I have a bad news for ya:) it does, we have specific skills, it can be missed normally, and its ok, rogue has lowest accuracy basicly because of shaper/dualdaggers has lowest among all weapons, BUT, it was some time when I used a hat with dex+acc, and rogue has ~255 or 260 accuracy. I want to admite that was weird, when lv102 wind rider vs some 104-105 char at olympiad missed rarely. em, almost no damn misses. it was like 4/5, 5/5 stabs with damage upon target, but, i must to say it, i have whole dex build, at oly its around 95 without lindi earring, smt like 112 str (poor-poor elven str-base..) 

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KissMyKnife    14
3 hours ago, Vassy said:

Well.. after the patch I don't have any observations. But I remember that from the patch info they said mastery rate is nerfed to 400% not 100. Personally I have 80 Dex and 131 Str. I no longer use Str or Dex fish stew - the P.atk stews are better. 

that true, i mean i was test mastery rage and berserker rage dual skill, mastery rage was a bit hard to test it cause on my gh really rare trigger it, not sure why, so the test result between mastery and berserker rage was make almost same damage.so on my gear and +20 power on stab, was almost same top damage on both buff.
Cant believe right? :D

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Dagger    1

Go stab someone with high  evasion on your low accuracy char, then repeat with high accuracy. 

You wont land your stabs more often. 

 

Around 70 dex is all you need for 3x skill critical damage, even at 65 dex you have like 95% chance. Fact, go check it, its not hard to hit a NPC to compare. 

 

Dex is only meaningful in pvp cause you want to reach 1999 atk speed to increase your skill casting animation, just like tge reason a shaper is better than dualdagger in pvp. 

Shaper = faster animation 

Dualdagger = more dmg

Str = more dmg

Dex = more atk speed, thus faster animation (unless already capped on 1999)

 

Thats all there is to it, in most cases STR > DEX. 

 

Edited by Dagger

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dvpKAKdcp    2
9 hours ago, Dagger said:

Go stab someone with high  evasion on your low accuracy char, then repeat with high accuracy. 

You wont land your stabs more often. 

 

Around 70 dex is all you need for 3x skill critical damage, even at 65 dex you have like 95% chance. Fact, go check it, its not hard to hit a NPC to compare. 

 

Dex is only meaningful in pvp cause you want to reach 1999 atk speed to increase your skill casting animation, just like tge reason a shaper is better than dualdagger in pvp. 

Shaper = faster animation 

Dualdagger = more dmg

Str = more dmg

Dex = more atk speed, thus faster animation (unless already capped on 1999)

 

Thats all there is to it, in most cases STR > DEX. 

 

Solo dagger give you p critical +844 and this is why solo is best u can deal good dmg with apocal dagger 2 sa 5 lvl kain enchant it +4 only before you get OE weapon

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Sosavision    0

Lol dex just for attack speed,. And garbage bonus? I have othell wind rider, I was on first on no full dex before lindviorup, not bad, i decide to change to str +15 and rest and low my speed a lot bad for othell and not feel damage increase to see a big difference, little times buff with doble time, and maybe some reuse very rare, change again to dex full 92 dex and I preffer dex, buff  double time same and double damage.  The thing of one hand dagger and two is the same damage just try with same dagger maybe wotk better with clones dual daggas, half kill work in mobs all skill low a lot of hp, in pvp half kill burn your cp no more, and juat 1 skill hit your hp points direct, lethal dont exist, other things is u die from 1 skill the only one who hit direct to your hp bad luck.

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Feryl    5

I think ppl have a lot of misunderstanding.

Im gonna talk from my experience and knowledge of my main class.

STR vs DEX?

Before decide which is better for Othell, we need to know how work Othell Stabs...

Stabs doesnt work as other skills like yuls or all other classes. Stabs are Always Critical (For this reason Critical Damage apply in Othells Skills. Please dont forget this, is really important). So, all blows from othell are a Critical Skill and Physical Skill Critical Rate is complete useless for us. Why you want P. Skill Critical Rate when your skills are 100% Critical Skills?

A proof of what im talking about is how work P. Skill Critical Damage in Othells. If you boost your P. Skill Critical Damage you will see how every blow you land is improved. So, 15% P skill Critical Damage = 15% Total Damage. For Yuls and all other classes, P. Skill Critical Damage Boost apply only when you land a Critical Skill.

Another important thing is: P. Critical Skill Rate dont affect your Blows Success rate, If you want to improve your blow success rate, you need to improve your Vital Spot Success Rate (Only skills like Angel of Death, Mortal Strike and some others can improve this stat)

Lethal Success Rate: We havent a way to improve this stat, anyway is not so useful after all. For pvp we will focus in damage directly into HP (Bloodstab) and for PVE, almost all mobs have lethal resistance.
 

Skills:

Superior Dagger Mastery: Depending on STR, skill cooldown can be reset or skill duration can be increased by 2 times.

Superior Light Armor Mastery: Adjusts Speed/ P. Skill Critical Rate according to DEX.

 

So, what can improve each stat?

STR: P. Attack, Reset Skills, Skill Duration

DEX: Evasion, Speed and P. Skill Critical Rate. Due P. Skill Critical Rate is useless, only Speed and Evasion (Evasion for normal hits. This stat dont make you evade Physical Skills or Magic Skills)

Conclusion:

Go for STR, a bit of damage in your blows due your patak boost and skill duration/reset. You can improve your speed enchanting your Critical self buff for Speed route.

 

If you think Im wrong, please make your own test and post your results.

A very good way to test your blows is hitting the same NPC and only take the higher value. Doing that, you will remove variation from damage. Obviously, only apply for PVE test.


I read a lot of ppl saying you need 80 Dex, but never any argument to prove why you need 80 dex. Be careful, dex is very important for Yuls. But we are not talking about yuls here :)

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KissMyKnife    14
1 hour ago, Feryl said:

I think ppl have a lot of misunderstanding.

Im gonna talk from my experience and knowledge of my main class.

STR vs DEX?

Before decide which is better for Othell, we need to know how work Othell Stabs...

Stabs doesnt work as other skills like yuls or all other classes. Stabs are Always Critical (For this reason Critical Damage apply in Othells Skills. Please dont forget this, is really important). So, all blows from othell are a Critical Skill and Physical Skill Critical Rate is complete useless for us. Why you want P. Skill Critical Rate when your skills are 100% Critical Skills?

A proof of what im talking about is how work P. Skill Critical Damage in Othells. If you boost your P. Skill Critical Damage you will see how every blow you land is improved. So, 15% P skill Critical Damage = 15% Total Damage. For Yuls and all other classes, P. Skill Critical Damage Boost apply only when you land a Critical Skill.

Another important thing is: P. Critical Skill Rate dont affect your Blows Success rate, If you want to improve your blow success rate, you need to improve your Vital Spot Success Rate (Only skills like Angel of Death, Mortal Strike and some others can improve this stat)

Lethal Success Rate: We havent a way to improve this stat, anyway is not so useful after all. For pvp we will focus in damage directly into HP (Bloodstab) and for PVE, almost all mobs have lethal resistance.
 

Skills:

Superior Dagger Mastery: Depending on STR, skill cooldown can be reset or skill duration can be increased by 2 times.

Superior Light Armor Mastery: Adjusts Speed/ P. Skill Critical Rate according to DEX.

 

So, what can improve each stat?

STR: P. Attack, Reset Skills, Skill Duration

DEX: Evasion, Speed and P. Skill Critical Rate. Due P. Skill Critical Rate is useless, only Speed and Evasion (Evasion for normal hits. This stat dont make you evade Physical Skills or Magic Skills)

Conclusion:

Go for STR, a bit of damage in your blows due your patak boost and skill duration/reset. You can improve your speed enchanting your Critical self buff for Speed route.

 

If you think Im wrong, please make your own test and post your results.

A very good way to test your blows is hitting the same NPC and only take the higher value. Doing that, you will remove variation from damage. Obviously, only apply for PVE test.


I read a lot of ppl saying you need 80 Dex, but never any argument to prove why you need 80 dex. Be careful, dex is very important for Yuls. But we are not talking about yuls here :)

was make a test on dex was increase my dex to +12 on 66 so i was have 78 the damage on npc was same, even my top damage number was same, so was no change at all. just wanted to point out dex its not good at all on othell.

Othell and yull its different, for me if i get chant of critical my stab was increased, but on yull was no damage increase.

Edited by KissMyKnife

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Feryl    5
8 minutes ago, KissMyKnife said:

was make a test on dex was increase my dex to +12 on 66 so i was have 78 the damage on npc was same, even my top damage number was same, so was no change at all. just wanted to point out dex its not good at all on othell.

Othell and yull its different, for me if i get chant of critical my stab was increased, but on yull was no damage increase.

Sure, Dex doesnt affect your damage.

Yuls need a lot of dex for improve his P Skill Critical Rate.

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xHaseo    31

Daaamn guys. I've been away for quite some time and people still have 0 clue on how to setup a dagger and how things works? 

The difference between STR and DEX is simple as hell : STR is higher critical rate mastery (and dmg, but that's a pretty LOW % so...) and DEX increase ur p. skill critical RATE.

That's the main reason you should raise one of the two stats. 

I used to run a hybrid setup which allowed me to skill crit basically 100% but also landing lots of 2x skills. Depending on which race you'll go you should check what's ur main stat and act accordingly. I used to be a Othell GH so i had a pretty high STR and 'meh' DEX...So i went with +15 DEX dyes and extra items with STR (armor set + bracelet + talismans etc.).

Oh and, please. Stop saying that accuracy and evasion are increasing/decreasing blows land rate. The rate is actually based on ur class/buffs. The blow land rate cap SHOULD be (never knew the real rate) 80%. The only way you got to decrease the land rate is by using a skill such as Ultimate evasion which increase ur skill evasion. 
Also, rumors, used to be that DEX was increasing blow land rate. Actually, that's fake. This rule is actually working in classic servers only. 

As for the 'single or dual'..this test is REALLY old (2012) but the passive or such things never changed. 
https://gyazo.com/80550341bd0b4770876b2cc27bcc98a1

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KissMyKnife    14
On 2018. 09. 24. at 8:51 PM, xHaseo said:

As for the 'single or dual'..this test is REALLY old (2012) but the passive or such things never changed. 
https://gyazo.com/80550341bd0b4770876b2cc27bcc98a1

the test we see its nothing

Not sure about this test damage, i mean 21.997k damage on stab? really? on +16 bleesed ama, i make 1m damage on npc minimum, even without anything on.

Edited by KissMyKnife

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xHaseo    31
On 28/9/2018 at 2:45 PM, KissMyKnife said:

the test we see its nothing

Not sure about this test damage, i mean 21.997k damage on stab? really? on +16 bleesed ama, i make 1m damage on npc minimum, even without anything on.

The test is pretty old, as i said, it was back in 2012. Back then you were lacking most of the skills you have.
SS were not working on blows, skill power was lower, some passives were missing.
This test was only proving the difference between a single dagger and a dual dagger since lots of us were curious about this. And actually, this actually tells you a lot.
Blow damage is slightly better with a single weapon but overall DPS is better with duals since you hit harder on autoattack. This means there is actually no difference between the 2.
Passive skills of single and dual daggers are the same as back then so there is no difference. Just try to get ur brain to work and see the difference. If you're smart enough you'll understand which is better. 

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KissMyKnife    14
1 hour ago, xHaseo said:

The test is pretty old, as i said, it was back in 2012. Back then you were lacking most of the skills you have.
SS were not working on blows, skill power was lower, some passives were missing.
This test was only proving the difference between a single dagger and a dual dagger since lots of us were curious about this. And actually, this actually tells you a lot.
Blow damage is slightly better with a single weapon but overall DPS is better with duals since you hit harder on autoattack. This means there is actually no difference between the 2.
Passive skills of single and dual daggers are the same as back then so there is no difference. Just try to get ur brain to work and see the difference. If you're smart enough you'll understand which is better. 

wish i can test this out but sadly its to much adena to get 1 dual and 1h dagger with same 2 sa maybe 1 day.

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