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2 NEW Classic servers!

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beleaua    66
28 minutes ago, Fulkman said:

You know that everything what are you saying here has no value. Do you? It is pure speculation. Don't talk like you actually knew something.

Show me some DATA confirming what are you saying.

We don't even know how many actual people is on the servers, who and how much money is spent...

you don't have access to data but you can speculate. they opened more servers targeting NA customers. TI had queue for vips.

and one more, because there is a physical EU server but most europeans don't want to join because you have to pay. that is what many of them bring as argument.

3 minutes ago, Saffi said:

People like you only see what they want to see.

i think you described yourself perfectly

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Fulkman    5
1 minute ago, beleaua said:

you don't have access to data but you can speculate. they opened more servers targeting NA customers. TI had queue for vips.

and one more, because there is a physical EU server but most europeans don't want to join because you have to pay. that is what many of them bring as argument.

Dont compare Private vs Official... If I open tomorrow "official" server in the NA. Do I get 5k online user database?

You are forgetting one thing. Quality over quantity. More people not necessarily mean more money.

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beleaua    66
3 minutes ago, Fulkman said:

Dont compare Private vs Official... If I open tomorrow "official" server in the NA. Do I get 5k online user database?

You are forgetting one thing. Quality over quantity. More people not necessarily mean more money.

what is the illegal server i compare with? the eu one is official.

what is your second statement has to do with my statement?

are you sure you didn't meant to quote someone else?

Edited by beleaua

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FatHips    237
9 minutes ago, Fulkman said:

Dont compare Private vs Official... If I open tomorrow "official" server in the NA. Do I get 5k online user database?

You are forgetting one thing. Quality over quantity. More people not necessarily mean more money.

You're right, and I would hope this was considered.  It would be fairly simple to analyze (# nccoins per account per server, total coins per server) and damned foolish if it was not.

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Fulkman    5
1 minute ago, beleaua said:

what is the illegal server i compare with?

 

9 minutes ago, beleaua said:

because there is a physical EU server but most europeans don't want to join because you have to pay

As far as I know there is no such thing like official physical EU server.

3 minutes ago, beleaua said:

what is your second statement has to do with my statement?

are you sure you didn't meant to quote someone else?

 

11 minutes ago, beleaua said:

you don't have access to data but you can speculate. they opened more servers targeting NA customers. TI had queue for vips.

 

8 minutes ago, Fulkman said:

Quality over quantity. More people not necessarily mean more money.

Shop with bigger queue does not mean more revenue than other shop without queue.

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FatHips    237
2 minutes ago, Fulkman said:

 

As far as I know there is no such thing like official physical EU server.

 

 

Shop with bigger queue does not mean more revenue than other shop without queue.

I am not sure, but if you are doing so, you are fairly naive if you don't think NC considered who is paying and who is not when they opened up new servers.

Skelth is official EU server, btw.

Edited by FatHips

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beleaua    66
1 minute ago, Fulkman said:

 

As far as I know there is no such thing like official physical EU server.

 

 

Shop with bigger queue does not mean more revenue than other shop without queue.

there is one but it's with monthly subscription: https://eu.4game.com/lineage2classic/play/

eu players don't want to play there because it's p2p. but it's official anyway, same as ncwest

people claim giran has bigger queue but there is no queue for vips, but on talking island there are vips with queue. so who is paying more.

regardless, during TI prime time it's clear that giran has only around 5k shown on server status, and TI is the one with big queue, so anything people throw around doesn't mean much. this is why i said, they opened more for NA timezone probably because of more money coming from there.

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FatHips    237
2 minutes ago, beleaua said:

there is one but it's with monthly subscription: https://eu.4game.com/lineage2classic/play/

eu players don't want to play there because it's p2p. but it's official anyway, same as ncwest

people claim giran has bigger queue but there is no queue for vips, but on talking island there are vips with queue. so who is paying more.

regardless, during TI prime time it's clear that giran has only around 5k shown on server status, and TI is the one with big queue, so anything people throw around doesn't mean much. this is why i said, they opened more for NA timezone probably because of more money coming from there.

so, with the assumption that the queue's are the same numerically, we can empirically say TI has more paying population per account.  Well done @beleaua

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Krissa    92
16 minutes ago, beleaua said:

people claim giran has bigger queue but there is no queue for vips,

There is, actually. Yesterday, the queue for VIPs in Giran had already appeared between restarts.

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LimeX    1
20 hours ago, Devoid said:

Hi all,

two new classic servers coming up for all new players:

  • Gludio (GMT-4)
  • Dion (GMT-5)

Both of these AND Aden will be marked as "recommended" servers to direct new players there instead of TI/Giran.

Stay tuned!

they need to make another GMT +1 server, 

dion should be gmt +1

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Alten    0
27 minutes ago, FatHips said:

so, with the assumption that the queue's are the same numerically, we can empirically say TI has more paying population per account.  Well done @beleaua

 

23 minutes ago, beleaua said:

that's my conclusion as well. if someone accuse me of taking more the na servers side, i'm from europe

It's nonsense.

1 a sub for vip4 is 50 times a sub for vip 1(if i got correctly the prices),so queue means nothing if u want to say which server pays more.u can have a queue of 300 vip 1 on TI but if there are 6 vip 4 more in giran it's same money.
2 so u think that nc soft is aiming to have the money of the vip 1 sub(1$ monthly..) that ppl is making just to log in?the money will come later,when they will add stuff in the shop that u have to buy if u dont want to be an elpy in pvp.so,makin ppl leave now cos they make 37 server gmt -1000 and only 1 gmt +1 is a loss of future money
3 u have to understan that some ppl just dont want to pay even 1$ if they have to pay because in 2018 is not possible to handle a server(presented as F2P) with some k of ppl.I can pay for buying something i need,not because the company is not able to give a service,this is ridicolous,you give a trash service so i pay u?
 

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Zalsaria    2

Lets be honest, timezones exist TI and Giran are "bigger" depending on time of day.

 

As for earlier, F2P simply means people can play for free or pay for premium/VIP, there is a place for both, the free players help bolster the economy, the VIPs generally generate the cash for those items and the cycle continues. Also, server maintenance is NOT that expensive, after a point its pure profit, and apparently they are making enough to justify opening a total of 5 servers now compared to the initial 2.

 

I'm honestly surprised NCSoft hasn't put in a NCoin item like most mmorpgs do now adays where people can trade currency for an official item that gives NCoins, so F2P can become payers in a sense, since money had to be exchange to get the NCoin item originally (some game economies have entire separate economies based around them.)

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beleaua    66
10 minutes ago, Zalsaria said:

Lets be honest, timezones exist TI and Giran are "bigger" depending on time of day.

basically that. people say it's bigger here or there but they forgot to check the other server in their prime time

As for earlier, F2P simply means people can play for free or pay for premium/VIP, there is a place for both, the free players help bolster the economy, the VIPs generally generate the cash for those items and the cycle continues. Also, server maintenance is NOT that expensive, after a point its pure profit, and apparently they are making enough to justify opening a total of 5 servers now compared to the initial 2.

for now it seems more like an investment than actually opening because of the profits.

I'm honestly surprised NCSoft hasn't put in a NCoin item like most mmorpgs do now adays where people can trade currency for an official item that gives NCoins, so F2P can become payers in a sense, since money had to be exchange to get the NCoin item originally (some game economies have entire separate economies based around them.)

it's a risky business as it leads to bots. i think even d3 closed that kind of business. i know ncsoft has something a bit similar in bns where you can exchange your gold for some coins, provided by players who spent rl money on them, coins a bit similar to ncoin only that you can buy only a few items and not everything from the cash shop.

.

Edited by beleaua

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Zalsaria    2
1 minute ago, beleaua said:

.

We'll have to see how long the fuse is for this I guess, F2P extends the duration usually, but retention for F2P is all over the place. While yes it is an investment, its one they are confident in making due to the cash flow I'm sure.

 

Also yea, they could do it like Trion Worlds does for Archeage, you straight trade 2 of the items (APEX) for a subscription (they give just enough each to get the sub and nothing else and can only be used for that game.) Then there is Blizzard, but they can trade the tokens in WoW for a straight money gain but can only be used on battle.net games because it goes into their non-refundable account balance at a deficit of 5 dollars (pay $20 for the token, get $15 back when sold to someone or straight pay your sub with it.) I pad my WoW sub for 2 year in advance by buying tokens and working the economy for the gold.

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FatHips    237
18 minutes ago, Zalsaria said:

I'm honestly surprised NCSoft hasn't put in a NCoin item like most mmorpgs do now adays where people can trade currency for an official item that gives NCoins, so F2P can become payers in a sense, since money had to be exchange to get the NCoin item originally (some game economies have entire separate economies based around them.)

Absolutely horrible business model.  Diablo 3 had to entirely reboot because of it.  Not an MMORPG but literally same concept and economy function.

Read:

https://kotaku.com/how-blizzard-saved-diablo-iii-from-disaster-1797427650

Edited by FatHips

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Zalsaria    2
5 minutes ago, FatHips said:

Absolutely horrible business model.  Diablo 3 had to entirely reboot because of it.  Not an MMORPG but literally same concept and economy function.

Read:

https://kotaku.com/how-blizzard-saved-diablo-iii-from-disaster-1797427650

I personally have played many mmos (ok 3 fine) lately that use the system and they failed for other reasones, Archeage due to poor management/lies, WoW (I bought other games/microtransactions with their WoW tokens and WoW is still going but BfA is kinda eh,) and Guild Wars 2 which is stable.

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FatHips    237
5 minutes ago, Zalsaria said:

I personally have played many mmos (ok 3 fine) lately that use the system and they failed for other reasones, Archeage due to poor management/lies, WoW (I bought other games/microtransactions with their WoW tokens and WoW is still going but BfA is kinda eh,) and Guild Wars 2 which is stable.

I believe this is a coping mechanism that is attempting to address a botting issue and meant to put a ceiling/floor to RMT trading.  RMT by itself is not inherently harmful, because it maintains game balance if the money was not botted out of nowhere.  Again the analogy of a player quitting and giving away their gear or selling it has no different effect on game balance.  That's a zero-sum game either way.

The proper way to address bot farming is through enforcement and technology not by changing game mechanics that breaks the game.  That's the "easy" button but it destroys the games in the long term.  Diablo is a well documented and perfect example.

NC is selling their antibot technology to other firms, so it is apparently technology that is their way to address bots.  The problem is on a free to play server, bots have no cost of entry, so they will keep returning as long as they can survive long enough to make a profit (less than a day).  So in order to prevent botting on f2p servers you either need nearly perfect enforcement, or a combination of solid enforcement with a barrier to entry (pay2play).

Edited by FatHips

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Lawman    147

Two quick comments:

I've ben watching server populations closely.  Both servers are maxed out during their peak hours.  But Giran's population goes down far more during none peak hours.  I've also noticed in experiments I've done with a free account that TI's queues tend to be larger, but I haven't done enough research to say if that is always the case.

NCWest would have avoided most of their problems by having classic be pay to play from the start, based on the Skelth model (yes, I know Skelth has it's problems now, but I don't think they are related to the payment model).  I, for one, would have much preferred it.  But, NCWest doesn't seem to be open to the idea.  I still say the best solution is for them to open one additional live server and one additional classic server, both strictly pay to play with no pay to win elements, and see if they are popular.  I think they would be.  It's worth the experiment. 

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Zalsaria    2
26 minutes ago, FatHips said:

I believe this is a coping mechanism that is attempting to address a botting issue and meant to put a ceiling/floor to RMT trading.  RMT by itself is not inherently harmful, because it maintains game balance if the money was not botted out of nowhere.  Again the analogy of a player quitting and giving away their gear or selling it has no different effect on game balance.  That's a zero-sum game either way.

The proper way to address bot farming is through enforcement and technology not by changing game mechanics that breaks the game.  That's the "easy" button but it destroys the games in the long term.  Diablo is a well documented and perfect example.

NC is selling their antibot technology to other firms, so it is apparently technology that is their way to address bots.  The problem is on a free to play server, bots have no cost of entry, so they will keep returning as long as they can survive long enough to make a profit (less than a day).  So in order to prevent botting on f2p servers you either need nearly perfect enforcement, or a combination of solid enforcement with a barrier to entry (pay2play).

Sadly that's always going to be the case as well, regardless of if its F2P ot P2P, a few gold sells to buyers will recoup the money spent even if P2P(or even a fraction of a sell, I played with a person that RMTed literally hundreds of dollars a month in Archeage gold to fund his enhancement gambling problem.) As long as people want it it will be there, that's the problem that will never be solved I'm afraid, because people always want an advantage and don't care how they get it, illegal or not.

 

I'm not afraid to admit I'm poor and I'm playing F2P right now, but once my monthly disability comes in I will pay to support a game I loved a decade ago. However, the whole "VIP is server specific" bothers me. I wouldn't be sitting here farming adena in a sub optimal way (without VIP so no bonus drops) if it wasn't F2P, but I do plan to pay eventually and I think that is what devs considered F2P now, a way to get people into something and slowly and sometimes bluntly say "you can play all you want...but if you give us some $$ your experience will be better."

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Fulkman    5
6 minutes ago, Lawman said:

I still say the best solution is for them to open one additional live server and one additional classic server, both strictly pay to play with no pay to win elements, and see if they are popular.  I think they would be.  It's worth the experiment. 

+1

27 minutes ago, Zalsaria said:

I personally have played many mmos (ok 3 fine) lately that use the system and they failed for other reasones, Archeage due to poor management/lies, WoW (I bought other games/microtransactions with their WoW tokens and WoW is still going but BfA is kinda eh,) and Guild Wars 2 which is stable.

EVE online. Best of the best :) I played when was P2P. And if you were hardcore player you were able to buy next month fees using just in-game money. From what i know now... it is F2P without P2W shit.

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FatHips    237
40 minutes ago, Zalsaria said:

Sadly that's always going to be the case as well, regardless of if its F2P ot P2P, a few gold sells to buyers will recoup the money spent even if P2P(or even a fraction of a sell, I played with a person that RMTed literally hundreds of dollars a month in Archeage gold to fund his enhancement gambling problem.) As long as people want it it will be there, that's the problem that will never be solved I'm afraid, because people always want an advantage and don't care how they get it, illegal or not.

To the contrary, this is actually a textbook lesson in micro (and macro) economics.  If you raise the barriers to entry, less firms will enter the market, and less GDP will result.

To translate that to the current discussion, if you have pay to play, the higher the pay wall, the less bots will farm and the less RMT will happen (you could graph it in theory).

This is pretty much the rule of the universe and absolutely true.

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Zalsaria    2
7 minutes ago, FatHips said:

To the contrary, this is actually a textbook lesson in micro (and macro) economics.  If you raise the barriers to entry, less firms will enter the market, and less GDP will result.

To translate that to the current discussion, if you have pay to play, the higher the pay wall, the less bots will farm and the less RMT will happen (you could graph it in theory).

This is pretty much the rule of the universe and absolutely true.

It will never eliminate the problem though, unless you make the barrier absurd and as a result, the community of actual players will falter due to lack of new blood and burnout. The problem with gold sellers is any profit is enough profit. If the game has something that can be farmed and sold they will exist. Hell, it took a year or so but even people started doing it to path of exile, they don't use gold/adena/etc, they use currency items that do various effects, the community latched on to a hierarchy of value and the bots flooded in at that point.

 

People don't just want less of them, they want none of them period.

 

(P.S.: Saw your world chats in TI a few times before i got queue locked, seemed like a fun person xP.)

Edited by Zalsaria

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Redgar28    9

Please dont hate me but i think the fastest way to kill of bots is to sell adena for NCoin - if there are players willing to buy adena there will be bots to suply that adena ...

if buyers have other sorce of adena then bots why bother to buy from them ....  and there is bonus - more money for ncsoft and server quality 

so less bots more aktive players ....

Edited by Redgar28

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FatHips    237
8 minutes ago, Zalsaria said:

It will never eliminate the problem though, unless you make the barrier absurd and as a result, the community of actual players will falter due to lack of new blood and burnout. The problem with gold sellers is any profit is enough profit. If the game has something that can be farmed and sold they will exist. Hell, it took a year or so but even people started doing it to path of exile, they don't use gold/adena/etc, they use currency items that do various effects, the community latched on to a hierarchy of value and the bots flooded in at that point.

 

People don't just want less of them, they want none of them period.

 

(P.S.: Saw your world chats in TI a few times before i got queue locked, seemed like a fun person xP.)

You are right, but if you lower the volume of bots it becomes more manageable to manually enforce those who make it through.  On F2P servers that task is impossible and does not scale with labor very well.  The trick is finding the balance.

Thanks :)

 

Edited by FatHips

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