Medeoan Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 It was WRONG in 2004, it is WRONG today. The only things it got right was class descriptions, skills, and crystalization tables. That's it!! I am not sure where Prima got their numbers back in the day, but they were not the numbers we once the game officially launched. If I had to hazard a guess, considering the guide was published BEFORE the launch, is that they were beta numbers which got changed in the weeks between the end of beta and the official launch. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devoid Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Only very few people had ever quoted PG on these forums. Most are quoting the L2EU wiki for Antharas (well, it is being updated to Seven Signs… slowly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medeoan Posted October 23, 2018 Author Share Posted October 23, 2018 I see people listing it all the time on here. It is so annoying to see people using it as a reference for "how it used to be". The wiki isn't accurate either as we know and why. At least it is close enough to make a good starting reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carebear Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 I played back in the day and used the Prima Guide extensively. Yes, it had its faults, but its spoil/drop/adena tables pretty closely reflected my actual experience in the game. Thus, I see no problem with quoting it for that purpose. We have to use something besides pretty faulty memories. Do you have a better source we can use? The same can be said for the EU classic wiki. Until NCWest provides us with accurate NA classic data we have no choice but to use it. Again, I'd be happy to hear about a better source for information on NA classic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beleaua Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 59 minutes ago, Medeoan said: It was WRONG in 2004, it is WRONG today. The only things it got right was class descriptions, skills, and crystalization tables. That's it!! I am not sure where Prima got their numbers back in the day, but they were not the numbers we once the game officially launched. If I had to hazard a guess, considering the guide was published BEFORE the launch, is that they were beta numbers which got changed in the weeks between the end of beta and the official launch. Thank you. you're so sure it was wrong that you have an overwhelming amount of evidence to back that up, right? you're not sure where they got their numbers? could be from solitaire or tetris? idk... have you thought it's actually from the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medeoan Posted October 23, 2018 Author Share Posted October 23, 2018 At this point, either NC can tell us what the rates are, not supposed to be, but actually are, or you go back to the old way of datamining and have a program track the drop rates as people play and compile those rates into a database we can all browse. That is how the old sites got their information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dopaxe Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Medeoan said: It was WRONG in 2004, it is WRONG today. The only things it got right was class descriptions, skills, and crystalization tables. That's it!! I am not sure where Prima got their numbers back in the day, but they were not the numbers we once the game officially launched. If I had to hazard a guess, considering the guide was published BEFORE the launch, is that they were beta numbers which got changed in the weeks between the end of beta and the official launch. Thank you. Okay we will take your word for it, while your at it can you enlighten us on everything else you know? There’s a reason police are required to write down things in cases instead of using memory during court, one is more credible than the other. we don’t believe that you know the rates from 14 years ago, but we believe the guide, written out is much closer than what you, or anyone else remembers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beleaua Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 back in the day it was this guy himred and his website l2wh that got the rates legit, by having large amount of samples. the tool and his website was condoned by ncwest. this is pretty much how the other fan websites got their data, by copying this one. i don't think there is anyone today that is willing to develop another 3rd party tool like that to collect data, and players willing to have this tool open all the time they hunt, so we can have a real view of the rates. and i don't see anyone from ncwest making a wiki either, as none of their games have one localized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devoid Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 3 hours ago, beleaua said: i don't think there is anyone today that is willing to develop another 3rd party tool like that to collect data, and players willing to have this tool open all the time they hunt, so we can have a real view of the rates. and i don't see anyone from ncwest making a wiki either, as none of their games have one localized. The problem is mostly dealing with people who would use the tool to manipulate rates in order to steer competition away from really profitable places. It's really easy to start injecting fake drops, especially if your entire CP does it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperlite Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 I still have my old prima guide, anyone wtb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beleaua Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 44 minutes ago, Devoid said: The problem is mostly dealing with people who would use the tool to manipulate rates in order to steer competition away from really profitable places. It's really easy to start injecting fake drops, especially if your entire CP does it. that tool, also used for myself, it was quite nice made. i don't know how one would inject data into it because the data stored was encrypted. if you're thinking of faking the data in game, well, that tool was more or less illegal in the way it was built but allowed because it was harmless. so it knew each mob and what dropped, and recorded data of anyone around. it didn't have to be my mobs and drops. i could sit all day in a catacomb and the tool was recording each mobs killed by bots and the amount of adena dropped, the amount of mats or even full drops. then i would upload to the website. it was quite well designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devoid Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 14 minutes ago, beleaua said: that tool, also used for myself, it was quite nice made. i don't know how one would inject data into it because the data stored was encrypted. if you're thinking of faking the data in game, well, that tool was more or less illegal in the way it was built but allowed because it was harmless. so it knew each mob and what dropped, and recorded data of anyone around. it didn't have to be my mobs and drops. i could sit all day in a catacomb and the tool was recording each mobs killed by bots and the amount of adena dropped, the amount of mats or even full drops. then i would upload to the website. it was quite well designed. Exactly my point, people could upload fake data (or manipulate the tool into seeing certain data) to steer competition away from profitable areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beleaua Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Devoid said: Exactly my point, people could upload fake data (or manipulate the tool into seeing certain data) to steer competition away from profitable areas. i'm confused here. how did you understand from my post that people manipulated the tool to see certain data? i'm not accusing or anything, just curious. if you're thinking that the sample collected in a place for lets say one hour was enough to steer the competition away, because it recorded no drop, that is not what was happening. the tool doesn't just collect one hour of sample. the website was collecting all the sample from all times and made sum up of all mobs killed from the same type. lets say you were in cata/necro killing nephilim guards. today it recorded 1000 kills, yesterday probably 4000k because there were more players and so on. and this tool was recording each drop from each individual mob. in the end the website you uploaded to had an estimation of the total amount of mobs killed and their drops. people were using this tool staying up basically from one maintenance to another, recording drops from mobs killed by bots. low amount of data was not accepted and discarded. anyway, over the years it was quite precise because of the amount of data collected in total. then you could see how a full drop, lets say dark crystal gaiters, had like 1 in 40k mobs (i don't remember exactly, around 30k-45k) chance to drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devoid Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 27 minutes ago, beleaua said: i'm confused here. how did you understand from my post that people manipulated the tool to see certain data? i'm not accusing or anything, just curious. if you're thinking that the sample collected in a place for lets say one hour was enough to steer the competition away, because it recorded no drop, that is not what was happening. the tool doesn't just collect one hour of sample. the website was collecting all the sample from all times and made sum up of all mobs killed from the same type. lets say you were in cata/necro killing nephilim guards. today it recorded 1000 kills, yesterday probably 4000k because there were more players and so on. and this tool was recording each drop from each individual mob. in the end the website you uploaded to had an estimation of the total amount of mobs killed and their drops. people were using this tool staying up basically from one maintenance to another, recording drops from mobs killed by bots. low amount of data was not accepted and discarded. anyway, over the years it was quite precise because of the amount of data collected in total. then you could see how a full drop, lets say dark crystal gaiters, had like 1 in 40k mobs (i don't remember exactly, around 30k-45k) chance to drop. The problem is that people who play to win (e.g. like the 3x8h shift CPs) will feed this tool false data, e.g. long afk sessions next to trash mobs*, except each time a mob dies, fake drops are added based on public knowledge on what that mob is supposed to drop, effectively inflating rates for certain mobs. On the other hand, during actual CP hunting time, all drops, except adena are removed/hidden and in the end, not reported to the tool database. Obviously, if everyone is using the tool, these anomalies would be somewhat less problematic. But let's face it, who will want to run some 3rd party tool gathering info about their gameplay, even if NCw states its usage will not result in a ban? *(killed by bots as they primarily care for adena, not drop/spoil and prefer not getting ksed/pked/lured as would happen in highly contested areas) And I think everyone saw just how far the play-to-win users are ready to go, especially before macro loop times in LIVE servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beleaua Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Devoid said: The problem is that people who play to win (e.g. like the 3x8h shift CPs) will feed this tool false data, e.g. long afk sessions next to trash mobs*, except each time a mob dies, fake drops are added based on public knowledge on what that mob is supposed to drop, effectively inflating rates for certain mobs. On the other hand, during actual CP hunting time, all drops, except adena are removed/hidden and in the end, not reported to the tool database. *(killed by bots as they primarily care for adena, not drop/spoil and prefer not getting ksed/pked/lured as would happen in highly contested areas) ok now i understand. you're right, that could definitely happen if there are not enough players in the area, not enough players willing to participate in building the database, or omitting to submit. but the great part of that tool was that you could have had a level 1 character and move it varka/ketra, catacombs or any other high level zone we had in the past and let it stay there afk for days, recording drops. plenty of players did that in the past. the tool also had a big range and bypassed walls. i remember being above devastated castle and the tool was recording mobs and drop from underneath, which was some necropolis rooms. i remember being in tower of insolence and recorded from all the upper and lower floors. but anyway, all this talk is for nothing. i don't think there are anyone willing to revive this project today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzzzzzzz Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 6 hours ago, Medeoan said: I see people listing it all the time on here. It is so annoying to see people using it as a reference for "how it used to be". The wiki isn't accurate either as we know and why. At least it is close enough to make a good starting reference. ppl are not comparing anything to l2wiki . WE KNOW ITS LOWER THEN THAT . problem is 35 lvl x1 hp mob is dropping same adena as 44 lvl x4 hp mob. i dont think u get the problem here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceAge Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Devoid said: The problem is mostly dealing with people who would use the tool to manipulate rates in order to steer competition away from really profitable places. It's really easy to start injecting fake drops, especially if your entire CP does it. What? Lol. Conspiracy theory much ? Damn .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tool_of_Society Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 5 hours ago, Devoid said: The problem is mostly dealing with people who would use the tool to manipulate rates in order to steer competition away from really profitable places. It's really easy to start injecting fake drops, especially if your entire CP does it. Yes your 9 people injecting false data for a few hours will surely overwhelm the thousands (back then probably closer to tens of thousands) of other people who were using the program properly for tens (probably hundreds) of thousands of effective hours. Yes people tried to manipulate it but the vast majority didn't and the data was mostly sound as a result.'' The developers were very aware of people trying to cheese the system and had counters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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