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Etina's End - end of titan (but not wynns)


Devoid
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Hello all,

Etina's end (Salvation update) will reassign weapon types for all items. Long story short, CRUSHER was nominated to be the designated 2h blunt for fighters… Even though that makes a S80 Dynasty Crusher the most powerful common (recipe craftable) 2h blunt. Luckily, Tauti 2h axe and Frenzied Tauti 2h axes were deemed 2h fighter blunts, so the best 2h blunt will be a R grade item.

As retributer will no longer be a 2h blunt (it will still be a two-handed weapon), this means neither weapon mastery nor special skills like frenzy, not certain buffs (SoS) will have any effect when utilizing a retributer as a weapon. The same applies to the Wynn equipment sharing passive which had extra bonuses when a 2h blunt was equipped.

 

Having this in mind, SoS may no longer be useful to a titan (nor a retributer, nor a 2h blunt).

On 12/12/2017 at 6:20 PM, BurnCycle said:

+12 bloody will always be better. The tauti weapons lacks the extra pve dmg and more importantly the crit damage boost. (Tauti weapons only gives crit rate, no crit damage)

10% from Kain 8 + 5% from Leona 8 is 15% P. CD vs 100% from SoS. Aug doesn't add anything since you can aug both with the same +15% PCD.

The extra P.Atk., extra SS bonus from OE and 15% all damage from bloody are the main losses.

 

Let's compare the three.

+12 Bloody Retri VS +12 Bloody Slasher VS Frenzied Tauti's Two-handed Axe
1030 vs 1205 vs 1013 P.Atk.
6 vs 8 vs 8 weapon P. Crit. Rate
8.4% vs 8.4% vs 0% shot bonus
300 vs 300 vs 450 element (all allow free selection)

All allow augmentations (all can have +2 STR +15 PCD)
All have the special (3rd) SA slot (all can have Tyrr or Sigel SAs)

Frenzied Tauti features a preset of built-in SAs that the user does not have any control of:
Max HP +25% (equivalent to Kain S5)
P. Atk. +10% (equivalent to Kain S9)
Atk. Spd. + 15% (equivalent to Kain S5)
P. Crit. Rate +150 (no equivalent)
P. Skill Atk. (Power) +5% (no equivalent)
It also adds a +15% PvP damage bonus, which could be interpreted as 'Dark' upgrade without the HP/MP/CP bonus.

+12 Bloody Retri allows you to freely choose 2 SAs and also adds the 'Bloody' upgrade. The best SAs for PvE would be those that add PCD, so:
P. Crit. Damage +10% (Kain S8)
P. Crit. Damage +5% (Leona S8) [most likely with +45 P. Crit. Rate, as Atk. Spd. is easier to max]
And, most notably, +15% damage in PvE and +10% HP/MP/CP.
The +4 enchant bonus is useless for fighters, and ss bonus was already mentioned.

Since both were able to use SoS, FT would only have been better on characters that have a significantly lower critical rate with Retri, as critical hits are where the real damage comes from. A 150 element difference is unable to offset the huge difference of +15% PvE damage and the additional +10% +5% PCD.
However, with EE, retributer loses any bonuses earlier provided by passives or effects targeting 2h fighter weapons, so it becomes a nonfactor.

+12 Bloody Slasher, on the other hand, provides a much higher base P.Atk. (the tauti's +10% P.Atk. will not offset the difference). Moreover, it easily matches the max crit rate achieved with FT, so will crit equally as often. I am not certain of the margin a +12 (key value) Bloody Slasher is able to deal damage better/worse against a FT + SoS. The only thing to add here is that with Slasher, people typically don't box SoS and lose the +30% P. Atk. bonus (any weapon) in addition to +100% PCD & +40% VR amount (for blunts).
Clearly, no SoS downtime is preferred to compete, so SoS box must be able to evade aggro and have maxed CDR: +8 light set or higher, tezza soul or equivalent, 5% CDR from abilities, eva's rune, wizard's/crier's harmony & max attack speed. With the current trend of making even awakened tanks fragile butterflies and increasing the stats and amounts of enemies faced in instances/open field farm/open field raiding, such a requirement might severely restrict the use of SoS box (or designated player, it no longer matters).

Edited by Devoid
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You missing the point. What makes titan special is the combo between highly enchant 2h blunts, the sos buff, and their self buff skills like frenzy. If you take one of them the damage the titan does is as good as any weak class. Now the titan is supposed to be the top PVE DD out there, and without one of them is just a class that sucks at pve and pvp. Thus becoming useless.

Few things worth noticing. There has been reports (obviously not confirmed by me) that this nerf had two different configurations, the Korean version and the Russian version. On the Korean version, at least at the beginning, the SoS buff was still working as before with the old retributers. The titan class was still completely useless due to the weapon not benefiting from all the active and passive skills. On the other hand in Russia (from what i been told) the SoS buff didnt worked at all on the old Retributers. Again, that was some feedback i got from questionable sources so i don't know if its actually true.

That said, SoS buff might be "usable" in some situations, if the Korean configurations is applied, just not for titans. That class will be dead as a major PVE DD.

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Since there is no dedicated Wynn section on this forum, let me answer here. While Devoid is right about the Titan, the Superior Weapon Mastery of Wynn Summoners was changed during Etina's End (Aram could only confirm this on November 15, three months into the update):

24Ph8O?1510770913

Quote

M. Atk. + 24%, additional M. Atk. + 2083, Casting Spd. + 23%, M. Critical Rate + 6%.

P. Atk. + 105%, Additional P. Atk. + 1586 when a Two-Handed Staff or a Two-Handed Blunt Weapon is equipped.
P. Accuracy + 4. INT + 2.
Depending on your INT, the Cooldown resets or the duration increases by 2 times.

http://boards.rochand.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2093#p37380

 

This means Wynn Summoners will get their P.Atk. bonus both from Retributers (in Etina's End called "Staff") and real two-handed blunts like Crushers or Tauti's Two-Handed Axe.

 

Edited by Yidao
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On 12/13/2017 at 7:06 PM, Draecke said:

aka Wyn's won't be impacted as much but Tyr's with SoS pets yup and let's be honest here that whole deal with SoS is bound to get completely removed eventually anyways..

They shouldn't have left these 3rd class skills to stack with any of the iss buffs in the first place. It's been 6 years since GoD update came and we still have 3rd class skills bring used...

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I dont know if any of you speak from his own experience regarding this doom day of titans...

I have my dual Titan 101, low-midgeared items, and I use 2h Sword. I can solo K99 in round 30 min.

With same equip I coudnt finish with EVI or GK...Im sure there is curve of "damage output vs gear" and from my experience Titan have one of the lowest...in any case lower then Evi and GK.

Titans damage output is higher then any warrior class with or without retri and sos...its just a fact.

The only interesting thing in EtinaS End is Tyrr Maestro, the only tyrr who are able to use high lvl blunt and sos. That been said, tyrr maestro coud be new top dd...its about time :D

 

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2 hours ago, Pleistoros said:

I dont know if any of you speak from his own experience regarding this doom day of titans...

I have my dual Titan 101, low-midgeared items, and I use 2h Sword. I can solo K99 in round 30 min.

With same equip I coudnt finish with EVI or GK...Im sure there is curve of "damage output vs gear" and from my experience Titan have one of the lowest...in any case lower then Evi and GK.

Titans damage output is higher then any warrior class with or without retri and sos...its just a fact.

The only interesting thing in EtinaS End is Tyrr Maestro, the only tyrr who are able to use high lvl blunt and sos. That been said, tyrr maestro coud be new top dd...its about time :D

 

Maestro doesn't have all the supporting self buffs/temp boosts that make the Titan. Sure, it can use the 1h blunt; but so can Sigels and Isses.

Plus, I think you have something messed up. Evis has SM that does allow it to do burst damage that tops even GK, but it also has ridiculously weak survivability when all the undying/untargetable/celestial/shirt invul and similar effects wear off.

On the other hand, GK should be spot on vs a titan with slasher, dps wise.

Edited by Devoid
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9 hours ago, Devoid said:

Maestro doesn't have all the supporting self buffs/temp boosts that make the Titan. Sure, it can use the 1h blunt; but so can Sigels and Isses.

Plus, I think you have something messed up. Evis has SM that does allow it to do burst damage that tops even GK, but it also has ridiculously weak survivability when all the undying/untargetable/celestial/shirt invul and similar effects wear off.

On the other hand, GK should be spot on vs a titan with slasher, dps wise.

Indeed the maestro is lacking all the self buffs and boosts that make the titan so powerful when everything is stacked.
 

Single target wise a GK can keep up with a titan easily. 

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On 12/19/2017 at 1:14 AM, Devoid said:

 

On the other hand, GK should be spot on vs a titan with slasher, dps wise.

 

On 12/19/2017 at 10:48 AM, Tool_of_Society said:

 

Single target wise a GK can keep up with a titan easily. 

Assuming equal gear and NO SoS a GK does better sustained DPS than a Titan. 

It's pretty simple, 45% P.Attack / 45% Crit Dmg (Wild Roar) > 55% P.Attack / 30% Crit Dmg (Rage+Bear).

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On math look good but you forget smthing....Critical damage dont have same mechanics on all weapons. That been said, while titan crit x2 gk will crit x0.75 and when he crit with both hands  x1.5. That result in matter of dps put titan on #1 with or without sos. The truth they are pretty close but titan do a little bit more.

Edited by Pleistoros
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tbh it all depends on what gear you have, almost never you will have a case where both Titan & Tyrant have same gear so comparing it that bluntly is placebo imo :)

the only clear case is when titan has indeed sos pet as then there's no argument possible

btw a stacked dagger can out dps most Tyrs these days, check these fraps: https://www.youtube.com/user/yakabishitenzei/videos

or read the old Othel forum section: http://boards.lineage2.com/forumdisplay.php?f=267

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i think you guys are forgetting a little thing here...

as far as i know titan is not the "king of pve" bcoz they do tons of damage 1 vs 1 only, it could be part of it, but that is not all. they can also can farm with polearms remember?
so i think this "king of pve" tittle its bcoz their versatility.

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On 12/20/2017 at 2:52 PM, Rodah said:

 

Assuming equal gear and NO SoS a GK does better sustained DPS than a Titan. 

It's pretty simple, 45% P.Attack / 45% Crit Dmg (Wild Roar) > 55% P.Attack / 30% Crit Dmg (Rage+Bear).

I haven't done the math but my level 99 GK seemed to do a bit more single target dps on average than my similarly geared titan as they were both climbing to 99 and at 99. I don't use SOS so that of course matters and I don't have +8 armors with +20 weapons and stuff..

 

2 hours ago, beherit said:

i think you guys are forgetting a little thing here...

as far as i know titan is not the "king of pve" bcoz they do tons of damage 1 vs 1 only, it could be part of it, but that is not all. they can also can farm with polearms remember?
so i think this "king of pve" tittle its bcoz their versatility.

King of PVE depends on a LOT of variables.

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