Sayha Seer Exploit

[Ishmila]

Why complain about a class you can one shot ? Darn you can't win 100% in oly. Too bad. Maybe your classes should be changed not seers? Ever consider that?   We need to balance the game and if we gonna complain about hide, look at daggers doing this all the time in oly too, same with archers.  And titans cant be killed in oly , should fix that too right ?  These arnt exploits, just game mechanics we don't like @Hermes

[RealMayer]

23 hours ago, neoHaT said:

I didn't quite understand what the problem is. Each class has its own skills kit. Sayhas Seers don't have the right to be able to play? And the full hide/evasion daggers? And the Yul full critical rate? And the Titans with perma Guts? Is none of this a problem?

I think what should be discussed here are the Bots the guys are using to reveal the Sayhas Seers. As far as I know, the videos have already been sent by ticket and nothing has been done. People following invisible chars with locked target...

This is anti-game, not using the skills the class has.

they have all the right to play, but atm nova clan use saya seer lvl 105 or less just to sign with player and make it draw, they not trying to fight ot to win they just want you lose 20-30 point, they using oly system bad that why @Hermes need to check this out for try fix it. bcz ppl already start gave up from oly bcz of this bad use of that class

[MacAulish]

3 hours ago, RealMayer said:

they have all the right to play, but atm nova clan use saya seer lvl 105 or less just to sign with player and make it draw, they not trying to fight ot to win they just want you lose 20-30 point, they using oly system bad that why @Hermes need to check this out for try fix it. bcz ppl already start gave up from oly bcz of this bad use of that class

So what's the difference between this and players "feeding" each other? If we're going to stop this then feeding needs to stop as well.

[neoHaT]

3 hours ago, RealMayer said:

they have all the right to play, but atm nova clan use saya seer lvl 105 or less just to sign with player and make it draw, they not trying to fight ot to win they just want you lose 20-30 point, they using oly system bad that why @Hermes need to check this out for try fix it. bcz ppl already start gave up from oly bcz of this bad use of that class

All classes have a way to win from Sayha Seers. Just get it. Losing to them is not a "exploited" gameplay.

I lost to "S", a Sayha Seer from Hybrid Clan (your clan, right?) and I didn't start a topic talking about exploit.

If I consider Guts an exploit just because I lose to it, are we going to remove the titans from the game?

If I consider Sardonic for an offensive class like Death Knight a exploit, will we remove it from the game?

 

Not being able to win from everyone, makes powerful guys very bothered.

 

Peace 

Edited October 27, 2022 by neoHaT
Bad english

[Karigan]

3 hours ago, RealMayer said:

they have all the right to play, but atm nova clan use saya seer lvl 105 or less just to sign with player and make it draw, they not trying to fight ot to win they just want you lose 20-30 point, they using oly system bad that why @Hermes need to check this out for try fix it. bcz ppl already start gave up from oly bcz of this bad use of that class

This has been going on for a few years now, but it's  an "exploit" because Renovatio alliance finally made their own seers to do the same thing our opponents have been doing this whole time?  We are simply using the SAME game mechanics that everyone has enjoyed for years.

@Hermes

While you're investigating, please investigate the players that seemingly follow these seers while in hide, and those players that are able to target and use skill shots on seers that are in hide. Also, those players that are able to remove CS before their opponents are able to finish casting the skill. 

[neoHaT]

10 minutes ago, MacAulish said:

So what's the difference between this and players "feeding" each other? If we're going to stop this then feeding needs to stop as well.

Very well observed. Should "feed-waves" be considered an exploit? How to get the same person more than 10 times the same day in a "random" situation? Was it a kind of "exploit" of a matchmaking failure? Agree @RealMayer?

I didn't even see any topic about it, but it must have.

(Sorry for my bad English, it's not my native language)

[PugofCrydee]

17 hours ago, RealMayer said:

[removed my moderation team]

Interesting, since they have a lot of wins. I suspect they are targeting specific players that they win/lose or draw against. Really it's the topaz that allows them to win. if they didn't have that they would never win, yet I suspect we would have many more draws  

[karamitros]

FIX IT!its not possible for a lvl 99 toon no gear beating 115 toons with decent  gear,its just broken

[Ishmila]

@Hermes
Dear Valued players, there are items we have implemented in Olympiad called talisman battle support that allows you to use to bring players out of hide.  I might suggest using these items we have provided in game against players who use hide.  

If you have any more concerns please reach out , thanks. 

[Ishmila]

Since we speaking of olympiad, why is it the SAME time as dethroned?  it screws over anyone who does olympiad

[PugofCrydee]

54 minutes ago, Ishmila said:

@Hermes
Dear Valued players, there are items we have implemented in Olympiad called talisman battle support that allows you to use to bring players out of hide.  I might suggest using these items we have provided in game against players who use hide.  

If you have any more concerns please reach out , thanks. 

Please enlighten me on the range, I'm not aware of it. Also are they able to go into hide again?

[W0XY]

@Wissp @Hermes

I play one of those seers in Olympiad. I play that class purely because I can not compete with the amount of money people spend on their characters and the fact that those very same people sign with 4 to 6 people of their own clan/CP to get feeds because they refuse to compete with opponents equally geared as them. They do not want to lose. Hero status is a bragging status (as seen from MANY endless and repetitive hero shouts).  So people resort to being fed heroes. Do I think it's unfair that characters lose around 30 points because I don't want to risk being hit? Absolutely! Should there be a fix for that? Yes! 

But while while we're at it, let's have a look at other Olympiad "issues": 
- Currently, the major alliances work together by signing a group of 4 or more characters at the exact same time so they could feed one person - resulting in an "exploit" where that fed person becomes Legendary hero or a class Hero. - We've all done it and we're all still doing it and it results in no real competition at all. 
- Disconnects - Losing around 60 points mostly because of server instability when porting in an arena. 
- Draws - at this point, it's almost the same as a disconnect. It should not cost someone 3x the amount of points they would normally lose had it been a "normal" loss. 
- Arena pathing - if I'm not mistaken, it was 1 week prior to L2 Classic being released that all of a sudden, you can click on a ceiling or on a flag or other objects in arenas that prior to the mentioned update you were not able to click on - this is resulting in characters getting stuck on pillars, moving in directions they do not intent to, etc.
- Not being able to see the full list of Olympiad participants when trying to observe - e.g. you only see 3 match-ups even after clicking refresh over 15 times (not even being dramatic)
- Olympiad time overlapping with Dethroned. For real? Do I need to say more? 
- The rewards need to be better for Olympiad participants. For example, give the 2nd place rune to top 5 people in that class. Of course, monetary rewards should be higher too - make participating in Olympiad as rewarding as Dethroned. So far mostly what people get is bragging rights and ONLY if they win Hero. 

My suggestion to solve the "feeding" thing is that no one should pair with the same person more than once per Olympiad week. I believe this would make more people play Olympiad. But first, I really thing the whole Disconnects and Draws should be fixed. If you have to punish the intentional restarts, make it so that the characters only lose the amount of points they would if they actually fought it out. Same thing with Draws. 
As for the Arena pathing - revert it to how it was before the classic update?

As for the seer thing - make the *Cancel Hide* talisman cast instantly instead of 4s cast. Fixes not only seers but other classes in permanent hide as well. We all know the top daggers can hide the same as a seer. 
 

 

[PugofCrydee]

On 10/28/2022 at 10:43 PM, W0XY said:

@Wissp @Hermes

I play one of those seers in Olympiad. I play that class purely because I can not compete with the amount of money people spend on their characters and the fact that those very same people sign with 4 to 6 people of their own clan/CP to get feeds because they refuse to compete with opponents equally geared as them. They do not want to lose. Hero status is a bragging status (as seen from MANY endless and repetitive hero shouts).  So people resort to being fed heroes. Do I think it's unfair that characters lose around 30 points because I don't want to risk being hit? Absolutely! Should there be a fix for that? Yes! 

But while while we're at it, let's have a look at other Olympiad "issues": 
- Currently, the major alliances work together by signing a group of 4 or more characters at the exact same time so they could feed one person - resulting in an "exploit" where that fed person becomes Legendary hero or a class Hero. - We've all done it and we're all still doing it and it results in no real competition at all. 
- Disconnects - Losing around 60 points mostly because of server instability when porting in an arena. 
- Draws - at this point, it's almost the same as a disconnect. It should not cost someone 3x the amount of points they would normally lose had it been a "normal" loss. 
- Arena pathing - if I'm not mistaken, it was 1 week prior to L2 Classic being released that all of a sudden, you can click on a ceiling or on a flag or other objects in arenas that prior to the mentioned update you were not able to click on - this is resulting in characters getting stuck on pillars, moving in directions they do not intent to, etc.
- Not being able to see the full list of Olympiad participants when trying to observe - e.g. you only see 3 match-ups even after clicking refresh over 15 times (not even being dramatic)
- Olympiad time overlapping with Dethroned. For real? Do I need to say more? 
- The rewards need to be better for Olympiad participants. For example, give the 2nd place rune to top 5 people in that class. Of course, monetary rewards should be higher too - make participating in Olympiad as rewarding as Dethroned. So far mostly what people get is bragging rights and ONLY if they win Hero. 

My suggestion to solve the "feeding" thing is that no one should pair with the same person more than once per Olympiad week. I believe this would make more people play Olympiad. But first, I really thing the whole Disconnects and Draws should be fixed. If you have to punish the intentional restarts, make it so that the characters only lose the amount of points they would if they actually fought it out. Same thing with Draws. 
As for the Arena pathing - revert it to how it was before the classic update?

As for the seer thing - make the *Cancel Hide* talisman cast instantly instead of 4s cast. Fixes not only seers but other classes in permanent hide as well. We all know the top daggers can hide the same as a seer. 
 

 

You mention the feeds, you are feeding to NOVA who are doing feeds. I agree with you that the system is broken, but Sayha Seer is also broken. To be able to Hide 100%of the time is a flaw that NC should look at. Daggers can hide and so can Archers but you have an opportunity to target them before they can go into hide again. 

I also agree that the cancel hide should be instant and have a larger range. By the time that you are able to cast the range is useless.

I also agree that Draws and Disconnects should be treated the same, the only difference I would say is that zero points are lost but a match is forfeited. We know we are going to farm books so there will also be people that relog.   

As you play the Seer you know that with Shilen Stun and Topaz you are pretty much a class that will just hide and Topaz for a match. Its not skill its just mechanics that are flawed. 

[Kysannia]

I think the issue is a lvl 105 toon with zero gear is able to beat people with 50k in gear because of the game mechanics that havent been adjusted, changed or balanced in 10 years. It's the only character able to compete without gear, so there is tons of them, I get it. 

Seers aren't the root cause of the problem however, Nc Soft West's refusal to take any kind of action or fix anything in the game faster that the speed of evolution is the problem. Most other games have fixes in place is a month or so. We've had issues like.. Skills NEVER landing in PVP for YEARS. Summoners and Soultakers being horrible for YEEEARS. Mages being the ONLY class that has a crit rate cap at 30%.. for YEARS. 

The sad part here is we have to wait with zero feedback for 6-8 months. At the end of that 6-8 mo if Korea hasn't seen it as a problem on their server that is VASTLY different than ours.. nothing happens.  So imagine our collective disappointment @Hermes@Wisp when a patch comes in.. and NOTHING we have been begging for for YEARS has been addressed, or even discussed on forums by a representative of NC Soft. Then imagine our disappointment knowing that 1. You won't address it because frankly you never address anything about game play, and 2. if Korea DOES do something, at the EARLIEST it will be another 6-8 months away, and that's IF that fix even makes it into that patch. 

Let's be real here people, this isn't simply a Seer issue, it's much larger than that.

[W0XY]

23 hours ago, PugofCrydee said:

You mention the feeds, you are feeding to NOVA who are doing feeds.

As I said in my post. "We're all doing it". And we will all keep doing it till NC Fixes it. 

23 hours ago, PugofCrydee said:

I also agree that the cancel hide should be instant and have a larger range. By the time that you are able to cast the range is useless.

It's Line of sight. I can hide behind a pillar right next to you and the talisman wouldn't work. It's the same thing with any AOE skills, regardless of class (Phoenix arrow and similar are not included in this).

On 10/31/2022 at 12:31 AM, PugofCrydee said:

Daggers can hide and so can Archers but you have an opportunity to target them before they can go into hide again. 

This pretty much tells me that you haven't been playing vs a full CD Daggers. They literally do the same thing. Hide, Disp, Topaz, hide again. 
 

[aelian]

Oh stop hating on poor seers. 

[mixa]

Get good at l2 and stop complaining.

[Katchoo]

1) Update stun effect from weapon crystal to not being able to stun in oly

2)  Change sayha seer's skill mechanics by not being able to use hide skill when is already hidden. Regardless of the cooldown of the skills, the player would need to come out of hide to be able to use another skill with similar effect. Example: healers can't use celestial over another celestial. When a celestial skill is used over another one it doesn't work.

[Siri]

On 10/27/2022 at 9:49 PM, MacAulish said:

So what's the difference between this and players "feeding" each other? If we're going to stop this then feeding needs to stop as well.

thats a stupid reply. You know that a draw takes away way more points then a loose. So feeding will always be lesser points.

If you think thats fine, let me tell you. Soon oly will be seer only. Sounds fun right?

Alone today i had out of 25 fights 8x or 9x Sayha Seer's. And ALL been from Chronos.

 

[PugofCrydee]

21 hours ago, Siri said:

thats a stupid reply. You know that a draw takes away way more points then a loose. So feeding will always be lesser points.

If you think thats fine, let me tell you. Soon oly will be seer only. Sounds fun right?

Alone today i had out of 25 fights 8x or 9x Sayha Seer's. And ALL been from Chronos.

 

They are NOVA . But you are right I'm pretty sure it will soon be a Sahya Seer Oly.

With Topaz, Shilen Stun and the ability to hide all the time its pretty hard to do anything. You do get lucky sometimes but that's very rare, well of course depending on the class  . 

They are able to spam the hide skill so what can I say. They are a useless class for PVE and PVP but they are very effective in Oly, you only need to look at the leader board to see this . 

I have noticed that each week there are more and more Seers they are pretty much all 105, it should be interesting how many there are at the end of 2023, that's if the game lasts that long  .

[Siri]

Another week another chronos sayha flood. Seriously this will be my last week of doing oly.

Gratz to all the chronos kids using sayha's to destroy oly just to win and in the same time crying that the game dies, no pvp left, no competition and nothing to do.

 

In fact all the QQ about no competition goes as long as these guys (no matter which side or server) can win. As soon as the loose they try all ways no matter how it affects the gameplay for them in the long run.

 

@Hermes get a solution or you can close oly completly soon - which  one reason lesser for the playerbase to spend money

[Siri]

On 10/26/2022 at 5:42 PM, Hermes said:

Hello,

We are checking on this and will update the topic once I know more.

Hermes

@Hermes So?

1 Month passed, oly starts in 3 days. How is the state right now? Did you even spend 1min for this problem? Do you even understand it (no offense, but it really looks like none of you gm's/support team peeps have a clue about L2 game mechanics at NCW and how different it is to other regions)?

 

To all the sayha seer abusers from chronos: Gratulation, you have one lesser Oly player to fight against. Enjoy doing oly against afkish ppl only soon. Must be very satisfiying spending a lot of $ for gear which in the end isn't needed due to no competition

[xer0ff]

I guess the Code of Conduct doesn't apply here.

Quote

23. While participating in Player-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay in the Services, you will not participate in any form of match manipulation. Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the ladder. This also includes disrupting other users’ experiences in the Services by not actively participating in good faith (e.g., “griefing” or “leeching”).

 

[Sorc76]

I find this complain about Sayha Seer comical.

Sayha Seer is the worst toon in the game. Can't even decently kill mob for xping. So difficult to level one.

If other's are using 1 for Olympiad, you can just go level one. What's the big deal?

[Slycutter]

Big deal is an exploited skill that is not being used for intended purposes can be used to take points from high level toons with 105 toon and then transfer it back to other high level toons.

That is the complaint.  NO one cares about the actual seer itself.  Me I find them annoying and pain in olympiad but never see on outside.

Whne you look at class ranking onlt  4 are decent level and 110 gets you in top 20.  Rank 100 is only 105