Banned Accounts?

[blazus]

Just a ban for 3rd Party Programs, 
I do not have any bots or anything completely clean game client. Permanent ban without further appeal, without warning.
2 accounts:
35 lvl after a month of play every day, does it look like a bot for you? and then bufer 33 lvl both ban accounts.
 D grade not even top and 200k adena jewelry no grade and some animal bone and iron ore, some recipes 3 lvl, class spoil.
The decision is unacceptable to me. 
Are you desperate to get rid of bots?
Bot or not, if it is going to get banned, what harms me really use it? 
It's people who played honestly and have been blocked and now they're reaching for bots and there's a whole bunch of them. 
It is the fault of this hardcore penalty system that you create cheats yourself.

[huntereksz1990]

GM rly must doing something witch this .... people leave server because this "ban" for normal player is rly dont normal .

You play normal no using bot and BAN!!!! this is only waste time ....

bot play and why dont ban ? ...... 

Me friend 40 lvl only d grade wepons  for 1.5kk .... and were he heve this item for botting? 1.5kk is alot in 40 lvl ?

He doing quest to profesion and in town BUUMMMM BANNN

[Scion]

pls take a look into this or clans will start leave aswell

-SKYNET SCION

[BDelicious]

Offense: Use of third-party program
Penalty: Account Closure

And that gentlemen is the answer I got to my being banned. Been playing for over 2 months, casually, VIP 4 and only managed a lvl 44 TH and a 39 Scavy. I replied asking what specific program I was banned for using because this I have got to see. Lets see if they actually reply and give a straight answer. 
 

[Scion]

they wont 

[Jesus]

Do we even have mods passing the community feedback in forums to ncsoft support? and where the is juji??

[Scion]

@Hime @Juji

QUICK REMINDER: ACTIVE INNOCENT PEOPLE getting banned from ur support without any insight what causes the ban !!!!!!!

TRUE BOTS STILL RUNNING 24/7

PLS FIX THIS SOON , WE WONT MAKE 24/7 new accounts to get banned again cuz we dont know what causes the ban !!!

[KoveN]

so basically, they are banning people for playing the game. What a nice bot system

[Nonas]

Hello,

So few days ago i created my trading account [content moderated - do not post personal information] to buy materials while i level with my main toon. I transfered some key materials and some adena (around 700k to be exact) to it from my main account Warsmith [content moderated], 20 minutes later after sitting in Gludin, trying to buy materials i was banned for suspicious activity. 
One day later i created my Bladedancer account [content moderated], i have leveled it till 20 level, did profession quest and streamed my almost entire progress on twitch.tv. Here's the link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/357217980 
When I reached level 20, i transfered my Top D Giran shop gun (Morning Star) from my main account Warmisth [content moderated] to this character. Half an hour later it was banned while i was eating my New Year's leftover food, also for suspicious activity. 
I tried contacting support but every time they replied some automated bullshitery without telling me the exact reason why i was falsely banned. They even said it's permanent and it has been reviewed under the highest rank employee or something like that, but this is just impossible. If I ever had used anything i wouldn't even bother filling this wall of text and submitting not my first ticket. 
Some key points: 
- I have never used any botting software 
- I have never bought any adena from RMT sellers 
- I have never used any 3rd party software while playing this game 
 

[Okyo]

I finally overturned my banned account to a final warning.

Keep spamming them with emails to prove your innocence. I've got banned 26/12/2018 and they unbanned me 2/1/2019 after countless emails and tickets! Keep trying! Don't give up! That's my advice! Somehow I've made it. You might make it too, who knows?

[TheBufferx]

20 minutes ago, Okyo said:

I finally overturned my banned account to a final warning.

Keep spamming them with emails to prove your innocence. I've got banned 26/12/2018 and they unbanned me 2/1/2019 after countless emails and tickets! Keep trying! Don't give up! That's my advice! Somehow I've made it. You might make it too, who knows?

Same here, but I lost a lot of time, my 50% was rune wasted! 

[Okyo]

11 minutes ago, TheBufferx said:

Same here, but I lost a lot of time, my 50% was rune wasted! 

that s#cks man..I was somehow lucky in that matter because I hadn't spent my coins to get a rune

[FORLINE]

I blocked the account for alleged use of a third party application and I play two or three hours a day despite that and the previous day in which supposedly used a third party application they said only that they reviewed all Possible possible ways (If they had, they would have seen how inactive the account is and it can not be used for a bot) And come to the conclusion that they simply do not want to waste your time and try to make another character but as in my case you will not want to play again because of that and is one of the reasons why people are losing do not block what they owe and they block people who only have 1 or 3 hours of play when some have weeks in one place and do not block that so I do not understand why they have time to review alleged bots do not check the maps and things that are really happening.

 

23221520: Why my accont its block 

[Luzardo]

Give up, they are not at all worried whether you have been harmed or not. They block accounts randomly for a program that crashes, and they send you that little automatic e-mail.

[Cally]

A general question to those who got the "ban" meaasge.
Does NCSoft not specify why you are banned?

For example:
"Your accound has been used from different IP adresses, which are locally far apart."
"Your account has been banned to to use of 3rd party program/automated hunting in Cruma Marsh lands"
"Your accound has been banned for trading Adena  with a bot."

I mean, that would make things way more clear.

[Tool_of_Society]

1 hour ago, Cally said:

A general question to those who got the "ban" meaasge.
Does NCSoft not specify why you are banned?

For example:
"Your accound has been used from different IP adresses, which are locally far apart."
"Your account has been banned to to use of 3rd party program/automated hunting in Cruma Marsh lands"
"Your accound has been banned for trading Adena  with a bot."

I mean, that would make things way more clear.

Generally they don't and it's pretty much industry standard to not give out that kind of information. It could be essentially "data mined" to provide useful information for bot builders. For example bot builders could test various anti-detection methods via multiple throw away accounts and then use the information given to them from Ncwest when those accounts are banned to further refine their bot.

[Cally]

2 minutes ago, Tool_of_Society said:

Generally they don't and it's pretty much industry standard to not give out that kind of information. It could be essentially "data mined" to provide useful information for bot builders. For example bot builders could test various anti-detection methods via multiple throw away accounts and then use the information given to them from Ncwest when those accounts are banned to further refine their bot.

Hmmm... I wouldn't have thought that far... good point.

[wakai]

10 minutes ago, Tool_of_Society said:

Generally they don't and it's pretty much industry standard to not give out that kind of information. It could be essentially "data mined" to provide useful information for bot builders. For example bot builders could test various anti-detection methods via multiple throw away accounts and then use the information given to them from Ncwest when those accounts are banned to further refine their bot.

Bot builders could just as easily make any # of accounts and keep modifying their code until the usage of their app no longer results in a ban. In contrast to us, they can have no doubt that it is their app that causes the ban. So IMHO, providing the name of the application that caused the ban is of no additional benefit to bot builders.

One can argue that we could also make dummy accounts and launch the exact same apps we had open at the time of the ban by turn to find the troublemaker. The problem is that unless you can replicate the exact same state flow of the application, you are highly likely to end up with false negatives.

I would argue that the safest way (w.r.t. the sanity/existence of player base) to detect bots is to do so on the server side through avatar behavioral analysis by machine learning. Humans can pretty accurately recognize when someone is botting just by observing for a few seconds, so the idea is to get the computer to learn to do the same thing. If they had the server do it automatically as a screening measure and then route to GMs for action, NCSoft would have a nice, low-cost and more reliable alternative. It's stupid that innocent people keep getting banned while bots are busy in the ant nest racking up $$$.

[DonnieBlunt]

third party software is not neceserrallya bot. Zoom patch dropspoil patch and any kindof patch get's u banned so. ur mistake

[Tool_of_Society]

13 minutes ago, wakai said:

Bot builders could just as easily make any # of accounts and keep modifying their code until the usage of their app no longer results in a ban. In contrast to us, they can have no doubt that it is their app that causes the ban. So IMHO, providing the name of the application that caused the ban is of no additional benefit to bot builders.

That would be a vast waste of time because they woudln't know for sure what element triggered the ban. They need the feedback from Ncwest in order to know for sure.
 

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One can argue that we could also make dummy accounts and launch the exact same apps we had open at the time of the ban by turn to find the troublemaker. The problem is that unless you can replicate the exact same state flow of the application, you are highly likely to end up with false negatives.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue here. The vast majority of people are not being banned because of innocuous programs. They just need something to blame so they can try to get their stuff back.

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I would argue that the safest way (w.r.t. the sanity/existence of player base) to detect bots is to do so on the server side through avatar behavioral analysis by machine learning. Humans can pretty accurately recognize when someone is botting just by observing for a few seconds, so the idea is to get the computer to learn to do the same thing. If they had the server do it automatically as a screening measure and then route to GMs for action, NCSoft would have a nice, low-cost and more reliable alternative. It's stupid that innocent people keep getting banned while bots are busy in the ant nest racking up $$$.

Based on the fact that I get screamed at daily by people who are convinced I'm a bot I'm going to have to dispute your assertion that people can spot a bot in seconds. I know a lot about how the front and the back end works with online games. I have also watched bots evolve over the last +20 years. I'm so old I remember when people were convinced that it was impossible to make an aim bot for counter strike in the early 2000s. I would never make the assertion that I could detected any bot at any time with mere seconds of observation.

Valve uses deep learning to try to catch cheaters in CS:Go and you can see how that's failing. Microsoft has been for some time trying to use machine learning to catch cheaters on the xbox network.  They are finally getting somewhere but their success rate is far worse than valve's.

Your assumption that they are all innocent is not helping.

[Tool_of_Society]

I would also like to add that even Blizzard with Warden at it's peak with +11m subscribers couldn't detect bots that were so blatant they would float 30 something level 1s in the air in each major city so they could use the bodies to form web addresses for gold farmers... Last I knew there were still bots walking UNDER THE MAP to gather resources automatically...

 

[wakai]

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That would be a vast waste of time because they woudln't know for sure what element triggered the ban. They need the feedback from Ncwest in order to know for sure.

What elements are you talking about that can be inferred from the name of the application that caused the ban?

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I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue here. The vast majority of people are not being banned because of innocuous programs. They just need something to blame so they can try to get their stuff back.

And you know this because you have conducted an anonymous survey of banned individuals where the 'vase majority' honestly disclose the fact that they were intentionally using prohibited 3rd party software?

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Based on the fact that I get screamed at daily by people who are convinced I'm a bot I'm going to have to dispute your assertion that people can spot a bot in seconds. I know how a lot about how the front end and the back end works. I have also watched bots evolve over the last 20 years. I would never make the assertion that I could detected any bot at any time with mere seconds of observation.

I deal with trolls too and I am not talking about them. I am talking about an average human being recognizing an average bot, not every human and not every bot. That alone would provide a far better solution than there is currently. The edge cases of AI usage are not that big of a problem (yet).

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Valve uses deep learning to try to catch cheaters in CS:Go and you can see how that's failing. Microsoft has been for some time trying to use machine learning to catch cheaters on the xbox network.  They are finally getting somewhere but their success rate is far worse than valve's.

Which is why I suggested ML as a screening measure to make GMs' jobs easier/faster. You should also consider the differences in magnitude (thousands of players here vs millions there).

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Your assumption that they area ll innocent is not helping.

I never said no banned player deserved it. The focus of this discussion is on players that didn't.

[Jelly]

30 minutes ago, DonnieBlunt said:

third party software is not neceserrallya bot. Zoom patch dropspoil patch and any kindof patch get's u banned so. ur mistake

i already got account banned (at least was new and low lvl), 1 of 8 accounts that i have. Never installed anything on my pc besides the L2 client, so you got no point

[wakai]

32 minutes ago, DonnieBlunt said:

third party software is not neceserrallya bot. Zoom patch dropspoil patch and any kindof patch get's u banned so. ur mistake

I think making modifications to the game client is a separate issue from using third party software (even if you used some software to make such modifications). I can't think of many scenarios where players would be incorrectly banned for modifying the client since most software doesn't touch memory of other software. Even antivirus software that does scan memory contents of other apps merely terminates suspicious apps without modifications.

[DonnieBlunt]

On 1/10/2019 at 5:06 PM, wakai said:

I think making modifications to the game client is a separate issue from using third party software (even if you used some software to make such modifications). I can't think of many scenarios where players would be incorrectly banned for modifying the client since most software doesn't touch memory of other software. Even antivirus software that does scan memory contents of other apps merely terminates suspicious apps without modifications.

i think banning goes according to xincode reports, and xincode doesn't allow u to modify game files. i tried to get dropspoil patch but the game simply wouldn't launch because of the gameguard, I didin't get banned, however, if a person uses software to go arround gameguard to increase zoom or get some modifications, then the ban is deserved.

Ofc it's weird that none of the addons are allowed in l2, but it's the system.

Also u say that modifications don't change memory, but how do u get zoom increae without changing the memory of the official file?