Complaints about archers

[L2quote]

 

Its getting tiredsome of hearing constant complaints about the Yul class. 

1. The reason they are top in the server is because most ppl chose to play them. 

2. Every other dd class can deal just as much damage of they had the same amount of items as the top archers do.

3. Sure they have range, but just about every class has some skills to shorten the gap and jump on the mobs.

If you think they are so overpowered, just create one and play it instead of all crying and find out by yourself...

That way you may all wipe your tears and realize that they aint more privileged than others and the reason some are so strong is because ppl took the time to build them that way.

[mixa]

1. Most people play them, because they want to play the most OP class, not just because they like them so much.

2. This is not true, no other class can deal the same damage from a range for the same time, let alone the no other class has p.def ignoring skills with literally 0 reuse and very high skill critical chance.

3. Shortening the gap is not the same as one-shoting a whole group of mobs without moving at all...

If you got the brains to comprehend what I'm saying above, then you'll understand why this class should be nerfed to the ground, literally at least to 1/5 of what it is now.

Also, dunno why you'd think it's a good idea everyone to play an Archer?

Just accept that the class is broken and if you don't get why, roll any other class and play it for real, then come share your thoughts on the experience.

[LordDragnil]

@mixa and ppl like you stop complaining about how strong archer is. 

You compare extremely expensive top tier archers with all other classes. That's wrong point. With the same boost, hands and right builds, archer is killable by any other dd class. 

It's totally how it must be that archer can hit with arrows many targets on distance.

And that distance was already nerfed from 900 to 600.  

PS. 

Mid-tier archer hunt not on lvl-to-lvl monsters, but monsters with 3-4 lvls lower. Other (mele/mages) hunt white and yellow. And I think that's ok and we have balance in mid tier. 

PPS.

I think that real evil in L2 is huge item gap. I don't care what's going on in top tier. Because only one way exists there: pay more or s$€k. 

[L2quote]

2 hours ago, mixa said:

1. Most people play them, because they want to play the most OP class, not just because they like them so much.

2. This is not true, no other class can deal the same damage from a range for the same time, let alone the no other class has p.def ignoring skills with literally 0 reuse and very high skill critical chance.

3. Shortening the gap is not the same as one-shoting a whole group of mobs without moving at all...

If you got the brains to comprehend what I'm saying above, then you'll understand why this class should be nerfed to the ground, literally at least to 1/5 of what it is now.

Also, dunno why you'd think it's a good idea everyone to play an Archer?

Just accept that the class is broken and if you don't get why, roll any other class and play it for real, then come share your thoughts on the experience.

I'm dissapointed in your common sense here mixa. I see you post all the time here and unlike most others i probably agree with you on 90% of your threads. 

If you have a Tyrr or evis with the same level gear as a yul to compare apples to apples, im sure the other class will do just as well as a yul. You need to understand that all the top dds on the servers have crazy gear that most of the other class don't have and of course those guys play yul class. 

When i mentioned that the cry babies should try to play yul, i wasnt suggesting that they play that class permanently but that they give it a try. And find out that an average geared yul isn't as strong as all would think.

[mixa]

Let me put it like this - I've Tyrr, Feoh, Archer and Evi. All 4 are decently geared, not top-tier. The mage has a dragon weapon and it's lv110. The archer is 108 and has +12 bloody krishna bow. The other gear is more or less the same -bloody sets, abundance 1, 7s, +10 elmore/Aden etc etc, radiant circlet+5 and so on.

The mage needs several casts to kill a whole group in FoS. The archer literally 1-shots the mobs, even with phoenix arrow.... and this is with 2 level difference advantage for the mage, which also has the 10% dmg bonus from the APs, the archer doesn't.

The mage crits way less often, compared to the archer...

Before the update I could farm 3 spots at once with the archer in FoS, whereas the mage couldn't, if I don't 1-2 shot the mobs they come close to me and reset. What gives?

The tyrr can aoe the groups with skills etc, but it's not easy, the evi can clear the whole group, but only on SM and after that it's back to slower pace and 1by1....

Can you please explain why is that?!?

Edited August 27, 2020 by mixa

[Slycutter]

I am archer mid tier I would say but at one time I was top tier when there was an actual level cap.  Nukers were for years the OP class with Magic crits in the millions until caps on crit damage for fighter classes were lifted and the forumulas for xping were redone and nukers fell down.

So it cycles.  Archers are also paper cannons they cannot take much damage so if they do not 1 -2 shot mobs they are dead.  Mages have many ways to stop from dying in combat so they have better survivability and actually a nuker/archer duo is a great combo for xping but everyone wants to solo.  I can solo ok on my own but to maximize my xp i like to duo or trio with certain classes.

[BlackIce]

So is this why mages got Dragon Weapons with coupon every day during the last event and archers only got one every three days? Are archers really 3x more powerful than mages??? Not talking about stacked archer, just the regular guys. Does an archer in only exalted kill and xp 3 times faster than a mage in exalted? 

[Whatif]

Played most classes. If not all of them except sayha seer. My main is feoh I like his survivability at this point in time and aoe capabilities, however, when I take my yul with dragon stage 1 wep it's way another story for damages. It is rly different farm and all those skill cooldowns and skill power cannot be comparable to feoh or evi thou evi  is ofc very decent raid farmer. If compare yul to feoh what i don't like for feoh that when it casting those skills it literally stops to cast while yul skill is just insta bursts one after another. To me feoh looks like slowpoke casting hitbox  . 1999 casting speed but this casting skill time, reuse skills time fcks it up compared to yul and crit cap 30% too plays nerfing role.. Well if I chose who will exp me Yah, Yul all way long now. 

[LordDragnil]

10 hours ago, Whatif said:

...when I take my yul with dragon stage 1 wep it's way another story for damages...

Yes, it is.. because of D bow. Don't you think that it's dw issue? I do not count another passives, but difference in p.atk of dragon bow lvl 1 and r110 +12 is 90%, difference between the mage weapons in m.atk is like 10-20%... But yeah, I think it's ok if they will will add 10% to mages and remove 10% of skill crit rates from yuls.

[TheHaggarDagger]

Bow has most patk of any weapon which is also the slowest weapon. Couple that with an easily reached attack speed cap and you have disaster. Not to mention half-kills which used to be Rogue exclusive.. It's a broke class. Face it.

 

No single class regardless of level and equipment should be able to show up and single-handedly wipe entire siege fields of dozens in a few skills. Do you even siege? Current meta is strongest archers win. I believe Yul should do really fat damage but their AoE capability is genuinely out of hand. Couple that with some of the best survivability skills of the game and it's no wonder why Yul is pretty much top dog.

[mixa]

14 hours ago, BlackIce said:

So is this why mages got Dragon Weapons with coupon every day during the last event and archers only got one every three days? Are archers really 3x more powerful than mages??? Not talking about stacked archer, just the regular guys. Does an archer in only exalted kill and xp 3 times faster than a mage in exalted? 

The dragon bows are THE MOST powerful dragon weapon of them all. Even lv1 one has more p.atk than a let's say +25 Limited Krishna bow and that's by no small margin, we're taking about 1000 base wpn p.atk diff or so.

To give you some perspective for comparison - the new dual class skills have +50 wpn base attack bonus and we're taking here about 1000 more compared to +25 Limited Krishna here, let alone if it's some +16 or less, then the gap becomes 2000.....

[Arscher]

With good equip yul have a advantage, becouse crid skill have no limit and you can push it hard + have range dmg.

For ppl with exalted or +12 bloody weaps it´s no rly diffrence between yul and other DD´s.

So this discussion is not for 90% of this game... + Yuls have some known weakpoints. All you can´t kill at range in a few seconds kills you overtime from short dinstance. And there are some classes that can´t get any dmg for some time (Evis) or have toogleskills (Feoh) what can be realy nasty for yul.

[BlackIce]

9 hours ago, mixa said:

The dragon bows are THE MOST powerful dragon weapon of them all. Even lv1 one has more p.atk than a let's say +25 Limited Krishna bow and that's by no small margin, we're taking about 1000 base wpn p.atk diff or so.

To give you some perspective for comparison - the new dual class skills have +50 wpn base attack bonus and we're taking here about 1000 more compared to +25 Limited Krishna here, let alone if it's some +16 or less, then the gap becomes 2000.....

Thanks, Mixa.

I guess what I'm asking is if you give an Exalted Yul a DW for one day, would it have more, less or the same total XP as an Exalted Feoh who had a DW for 3 days?

[Mystikal]

I like to think that archers are fine. It's the other classes that are broken. Don't nerf archers, boost the other classes to improve their strengths.

[mixa]

8 hours ago, BlackIce said:

Thanks, Mixa.

I guess what I'm asking is if you give an Exalted Yul a DW for one day, would it have more, less or the same total XP as an Exalted Feoh who had a DW for 3 days?

Rather hard question buddy.

There are 2 options imo:

1. You do twice 3hrs Coal mines and 3hrs Storm Isle with the Archer and 6 times with the mage. I'm pretty sure if you do this, the Archer will gain more xp, since it can pull way more mobs than the mage.

2. You go open field farm only - in this case I'm leaning more towards the mage to make more xp.

[LordDragnil]

7 hours ago, mixa said:

1. You do twice 3hrs Coal mines and 3hrs Storm Isle with the Archer and 6 times with the mage. I'm pretty sure if you do this, the Archer will gain more xp, since it can pull way more mobs than the mage.

Laughing...

Most of people even don't know how to play their characters. My mage cover the territory as your regular "boosted" yul, my yul can cover even more, but can't handle it because of gear (I will not support greedy NC till they change rates/policies, and don't wanna boost only one character).

You can meet my chars jumping around snare/fallen arrow and you will never think that they're afk. But... it's pure macro. 

I can teach you all and it will be your the best investment =))

Edited August 30, 2020 by LordDragnil
Minor improvements

[IntoFlameX]

But are we talking about archers in pvp here or in pve?
Yes in pve a geared archer can do better than any other class but don't forget the huge amount of very expensive items that this class requires in order to pull that damage
mid gear archers can't do any better than any other aoe class

In pvp from the other hand does it matter if a feoh deals 200k damage and an archer 10mil since you are dying 1 shot? I think no, the results are the same.

[mixa]

3 hours ago, LordDragnil said:

Laughing...

Most of people even don't know how to play their characters. My mage cover the territory as your regular "boosted" yul, my yul can cover even more, but can't handle it because of gear (I will not support greedy NC till they change rates/policies, and don't wanna boost only one character).

You can meet my chars jumping around snare/fallen arrow and you will never think that they're afk. But... it's pure macro. 

I can teach you all and it will be your the best investment =))

It seems I won't be investing, since there is nothing you can teach me to, especially if it comes to macros

[LordDragnil]

3 minutes ago, mixa said:

It seems I won't be investing, since there is nothing you can teach me to, especially if it comes to macros

You don't know what you are missing. 

[Mystikal]

On 8/29/2020 at 3:46 PM, BlackIce said:

Thanks, Mixa.

I guess what I'm asking is if you give an Exalted Yul a DW for one day, would it have more, less or the same total XP as an Exalted Feoh who had a DW for 3 days?

Been there, done that. Feoh with DW for 72 hours vs. Yul with DW for 24 hours is no contest. Feoh had way more XP.

[Slycutter]

If was day for day I will admit no one would keep with an archer with Dragon weapon for xp.  However this is an issue with the dragon weapons themselves not archers.

As stated someone has insanely enchanted bows R99 or r110 and doesn't even come close to a dragon bow.  That is not as true with other weapons and dragon weapons.

Lets do this Standard level 1 dragon weapon with vs R110 Limited +0 weapon 

Dual Daggers

Dragon Patk 2146       R110 Limited Patk 966

% Difference

221% increase in Patk

Bow

Dragon Patk 4225     R110 Limited Patk   1902

% Difference

221% Increase in Patk

So the difference in the percent its just how damages scales.  So all dragon weapons hold same percent increase but for Archers that scale is huge.  So you have to change a damage formula but instead of changing the formula just cap damage and don't say they can they can No one I mean No one should get hit by someone 2 levels higher then them by 1 million damage because no one can heal or defend against that.  So no skill is involved.  They can cap crits and damage on mobs so why dont they?

[Anything]

There are many factors for why archers can get a lot more powerful with same gear.
But it require quite a lot of top-notch end-game gear while with many other classes you can get away with mid-tier gear and still do ok.

PAtk on bows is always much higher compared to other weapons so they always stronger at this point when compared to other weapons with same +.
Archer is the only character able to stack the level 110 greater rune skill with the old one.

Comparing my archer to my other well equipped chars the archer more easily keeps the field empty at all times at the same time increasing the effectiveness.
In the end my archer has about 25% more xp and adena but lacks the drops due to not picking up so that is where my melee has a advantage instead.
I could put toon to pickup drops but don't care as i rather have 1 more archer running making me more in the end even if that one has less gear for now.

Don't forget enchanted weapons do have soulshot damage modifier so that reduces the difference slightly with a dragon weapon.
The 2 sa's are a big difference too compared to the modifiers a dragon weapon has right off the bat in favor of the dragon weapon even with lv 10 sa's.
It's logical that dragon weapon and blood cursed weapon outranks the normal weapons, makes them very wanted and a nice carrot to dangle in front of the audience.

Honestly with how fast you can overtake any other class with a archer i was expecting this to get nerfed like everything else i enjoyed in the past but fortunately this has remained untouched so far.

[L2quote]

48 minutes ago, Anything said:

There are many factors for why archers can get a lot more powerful with same gear.
But it require quite a lot of top-notch end-game gear while with many other classes you can get away with mid-tier gear and still do ok.

PAtk on bows is always much higher compared to other weapons so they always stronger at this point when compared to other weapons with same +.
Archer is the only character able to stack the level 110 greater rune skill with the old one.

Comparing my archer to my other well equipped chars the archer more easily keeps the field empty at all times at the same time increasing the effectiveness.
In the end my archer has about 25% more xp and adena but lacks the drops due to not picking up so that is where my melee has a advantage instead.
I could put toon to pickup drops but don't care as i rather have 1 more archer running making me more in the end even if that one has less gear for now.

Don't forget enchanted weapons do have soulshot damage modifier so that reduces the difference slightly with a dragon weapon.
The 2 sa's are a big difference too compared to the modifiers a dragon weapon has right off the bat in favor of the dragon weapon even with lv 10 sa's.
It's logical that dragon weapon and blood cursed weapon outranks the normal weapons, makes them very wanted and a nice carrot to dangle in front of the audience.
Honestly with how fast you can overtake any other class with a archer i was expecting this to get nerfed like everything else i enjoyed in the past but fortunately this has remained untouched so far.

I'm sure they would know better than to nerf the yul class. So much money was invested in that class by players to get them where they are. It would create an outrage and push more people to quit the game.

[LordDragnil]

Yuls under 110 are gimps.

110: +10% dmg, new rune skill, Minds Eye with skill crit dmg.

That's huge difference.

We have maybe 100 (or even less) bowmans reached this level at Naia.

Please do not say that they are mid tier.

Mid tier is 107-109 levels.

And these bowmans versus the same level mages does't look competitive. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by LordDragnil
Minor improvements

[Mystikal]

6 hours ago, Anything said:

Don't forget enchanted weapons do have soulshot damage modifier so that reduces the difference slightly with a dragon weapon.

Agreed, it gets close but advantage DW still. The most soulshot damage you can get on a Limited bow is somewhere around 21%. That's for a +29 or +30 Ltd. bow. Then you get +15 PVE damage and 2% Skill power and P. skill crit damage if I remember old screen shots correctly. Close but like you said, you can't match +30% P. Skill Crit Rate and +30% P. Skill Crit Damage with 500 element. Most are better off trying for a DW in an event like this than OE a limited weapon to +30.