Something needs to be done about this (Flagging/PvP/Griefing)

[Evoria]

https://clips.twitch.tv/DeterminedSassyAmazonPanicBasket

 

An explanation of what's happening in this clip:

My party had been pulling trains and AoE'ing in this room for a good while now.  Another party comes up with mostly boxed characters and a couple of live nukers(the ones marked with "star" and "cross") and start hitting the trains we pull. 

This is a PvP game.  My question is: How are we supposed to defend against this type of griefing? On the official servers this wouldn't have been a problem because players would flag if their AoE skills hit another flagged player.  Why was this feature taken out?  It doesn't prevent griefing at all.  All it does is switch the dynamic of who can grief.  

I vote that we should re-introduce this mechanic into the game.  I believe exp spots like this should go to the group/person who can WIN the PvP fight. What do you guys think?

[Vlademere]

Not sure it's going to solve your problem if AOE skills now flag players. 

When that mechanic existed it was also used to grief because while you are pulling the train the other party only need flag to initiate PVP. It may not always be the case that it's a couple live nukers with boxed support, rather a much higher level enforcer coming to assist lower lvl clan members bullies you out of the room.

Matter of fact is that the xp loss is not a major deterrent right now, so the game politics and the real "pain" of a full xp loss death is not really playing a factor.

I beleive n due time, this behavior will subside when players have more to lose.

[GrumpyMuppet]

i think that you should grow a pair and dont take this whinning on the forum. Griefing, ks, flagging, etc was allways part of l2. kill them, make them die (there is various methods to do it craftily) but dont come here to say others players bully you and kick you out of the farm spot you where on.

If you cant deal with them im sorry, happened to me various times. A lot other times i im the one kicking ppl out of the farming spots. This is l2, where you fight for the spots. If you dont have the wits or power to do it, leave the spot and finde a new one.

[Evoria]

3 hours ago, Vlademere said:

Not sure it's going to solve your problem if AOE skills now flag players. 

When that mechanic existed it was also used to grief because while you are pulling the train the other party only need flag to initiate PVP. It may not always be the case that it's a couple live nukers with boxed support, rather a much higher level enforcer coming to assist lower lvl clan members bullies you out of the room. 

Yeah you're right. But I think the fact that I couldn't really fight back bothers me more than the griefing.  The point of L2 is that whoever is the strongest should get the best stuff.  Their party wasn't stronger but they still got to take the room because they could opt out of the fight.

Matter of fact is that the xp loss is not a major deterrent right now, so the game politics and the real "pain" of a full xp loss death is not really playing a factor.

I beleive n due time, this behavior will subside when players have more to lose.

Very true.  There will most likely be less of this when you lose more when you die.

 

[Evoria]

3 hours ago, GrumpyMuppet said:

i think that you should grow a pair and dont take this whinning on the forum. Griefing, ks, flagging, etc was allways part of l2. kill them, make them die (there is various methods to do it craftily) but dont come here to say others players bully you and kick you out of the farm spot you where on.

I'm not necessarily complaining about those things.  I'm complaining about the lack of options for the situation. But who knows maybe there's something I just haven't thought yet.

If you cant deal with them im sorry, happened to me various times. A lot other times i im the one kicking ppl out of the farming spots. This is l2, where you fight for the spots. If you dont have the wits or power to do it, leave the spot and finde a new one.

All I'm saying is that if you want to take over a spot,  I think you should have to flag.

 

[mixa]

Carebear, you're not for this game. Try something else. Also this is not griefing, it's KS.

[Vlademere]

8 hours ago, yummaster said:

If your fix does not include:
* Allowing white character names to drop items from inventory and items that are equipped upon death from a monster.
* Allowing red characters with 1PK+ to drop items from inventory and items that are equipped upon death.
Then it's NOT a fix..

 

It's almost as if the original "griefing" nature of Lineage 2 is better than the "griefing" nature of the game now? At least everyone had a fair chance to drop items, whether white or red character name. Now, like you said for example: me as a dwarf, I just go to any party making AoE XP party, pull out my polearm, start stealing all XP, and spoiling all monsters.
If they kill me so what? I just rez myself, farm another train, my XP is back. If they stun me and kill me, so what? I'm not going to drop items.
You guys complained about removing ability for white character name's to drop items on death from monster because "it's griefing" but I think you are stuck with an even worse griefing, and you killed the beautiful dynamic of PvP and PKing too on top of it, nothing changes, noobs and carebears always crying, ruining game. I suppose your fix entails making working off karma easier, huh? Not actually making the game how it used to be?

 

Problem is that MONSTERS are not SCARY anymore. No one cares about monsters, no one cares about killstealing and aggro'ing monsters because no one takes it seriously because all you lose is XP, no item anymore, carebear dynamic. Only fix is what I said above.

Xp is easy right now so most people dont mind taking the death.

When it's taking 4 hours for 1% and you lose 4% on death people will be more catious.

[Qwald]

zomg crybabies.

PK him and thats all. or you too coward for that? then you shouldnt aoe exp.

[beleaua]

the problem on live server right now is that you can pk someone by mistake when their purple is running out (blinking)

[VincentColpa]

I guess the bigger issue its that you need to kill 350mobs with your first PK. I fully understand that PK should be bad and should be like a "punish" when you are a chaotic character.

But sometimes, you do have to become chaotic for "normal" reasons... When you have a bot ksing you, when someone is anoying your farm etc

and having to kill 350 monsters with just 1 pk is kinda ridiculous...

but, at least if you die you lose the karma... ( with 1 PK ) can't confirm more...

Cheers

[Sediyon]

simple, just make it so when someone attacks you when youre red, that person gets flagged only to you, unless you attacked him first.  that way you can defend yourself from 1 single noob kser while grinding off the karma on mobs but if a group shows up to kill you, youre still screwed.

they had this system in another mmorpg and worked fine. you could go red and be a target cause you dropped armor but at least not be a useless punching bag for every lvl 1 character out there without being able to do anything for no reason.

 

other things that need fixing are the restarting to lose flag and the flag dissapearing while you are in a fight lol thats just dumb. especially for any melee class trying to kill anyone...

[VincentColpa]

6 minutes ago, Sediyon said:

simple, just make it so when someone attacks you when youre red, that person gets flagged only to you, unless you attacked him first.  that way you can defend yourself from 1 single noob kser while grinding off the karma on mobs but if a group shows up to kill you, youre still screwed.

they had this system in another mmorpg and worked fine. you could go red and be a target cause you dropped armor but at least not be a useless punching bag for every lvl 1 character out there without being able to do anything for no reason.

 

other things that need fixing are the restarting to lose flag and the flag dissapearing while you are in a fight lol thats just dumb. especially for any melee class trying to kill anyone...

no that is bad also.. imagine Im PK and I am with a friend that is not PK. If someone comes and "flags" by atacking the PK character, the PK friend can kill him without penalty... and there are many other situations that wouldn't make it right... simply karma going down the normal way... the more PK's you get the more karma you have... but its simply stupid with 1 PK to have to kill 350 monsters...

[Sediyon]

3 minutes ago, VincentColpa said:

no that is bad also.. imagine Im PK and I am with a friend that is not PK. If someone comes and "flags" by atacking the PK character, the PK friend can kill him without penalty... and there are many other situations that wouldn't make it right... simply karma going down the normal way... the more PK's you get the more karma you have... but its simply stupid with 1 PK to have to kill 350 monsters...

you didnt read my post right. i said: if you attack the red character, your flag will ONLY be seen by the pk. you will not go purple to EVERYONE.  so ONLY the pk can fight you back.  but if you attacked the pk then im sure you dont mind him fighting back.

 

and the reason karma wouldnt change anything now is because the moment you go red.  the ks/griever can just rez with box and keep attacking you and you cant fight back

Edited October 29, 2018 by Sediyon

[VincentColpa]

Just now, Sediyon said:

you didnt read my post right. i said: if you attack the red character, your flag will ONLY be seen by the pk. you will not go purple to EVERYONE.  so ONLY the pk can fight you back.  but if you attacked the pk then im sure you dont mind him fighting back.

plausible, agree on that

[givemefive]

2 hours ago, beleaua said:

the problem on live server right now is that you can pk someone by mistake when their purple is running out (blinking)

IT was always like this.

[Vivisector]

I agree it's quite messed up right now.  The anti-griefing carebear rules on the server have created a more massive griefing issue.  Anyone currently can come and KS you as much as they want, and the current mechanics allow it.  It won't stop when there is more to XP to loose.  Because its skewed to always screw the person defending their spot.  At the very least we need it so people attacking reds flag as purple.  That way when you are attempting to burn to crazy amount of mobs to go white again, the person you killed can't just come back and kill you, or run you out of your spot.     

[Saintly]

Change karma system and flagging system back to original and fixed.
Now it was not so hard was it?

For those who don't want to flag when they AoE/farm in top spots, here's a solution, farm in shit spots that none cares for and none will bother you.
If people want top exp/drops they better be prepared to defend/fight for the spot.

 

Also a reply/update on the issue from @Juji or @Hime would great for everyone i guess since.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Saintly

[mixa]

You better be thankful that you don't drop items on death, you would't even be able to aoe xp most of the time.The karma system is just fine as it is and it's very unlikely they will change it.

[Evoria]

13 hours ago, Vlademere said:

Xp is easy right now s

22 hours ago, yummaster said:

Problem is that MONSTERS are not SCARY anymore. No one cares about monsters, no one cares about killstealing and aggro'ing monsters because no one takes it seriously because all you lose is XP, no item anymore, carebear dynamic. Only fix is what I said above.

 

Very true. 

7 hours ago, VincentColpa said:

I guess the bigger issue its that you need to kill 350mobs with your first PK. I fully understand that PK should be bad and should be like a "punish" when you are a chaotic character.

But sometimes, you do have to become chaotic for "normal" reasons... When you have a bot ksing you, when someone is anoying your farm etc

and having to kill 350 monsters with just 1 pk is kinda ridiculous...

but, at least if you die you lose the karma... ( with 1 PK ) can't confirm more...

Cheers

This is definitely a factor. I can see why they added this feature though. It makes the progression more fluid which keeps new players for longer. Same reason why they took out dropping items after mob deaths.

7 hours ago, Sediyon said:

simple, just make it so when someone attacks you when youre red, that person gets flagged only to you, unless you attacked him first.  that way you can defend yourself from 1 single noob kser while grinding off the karma on mobs but if a group shows up to kill you, youre still screwed.

they had this system in another mmorpg and worked fine. you could go red and be a target cause you dropped armor but at least not be a useless punching bag for every lvl 1 character out there without being able to do anything for no reason.

 

other things that need fixing are the restarting to lose flag and the flag dissapearing while you are in a fight lol thats just dumb. especially for any melee class trying to kill anyone...

I really like this idea. You could have the "PK killers" flag blue to the Pk'er. I wonder what the side effects would be though.

 

 This is great! Keep the ideas and opinions coming guys.  If we want to change the game then we have to be vocal.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Evoria
Forgot line

[kaho]

its just part of the game.. aoe flags ...been there since day 1

[Ripo]

On 28.10.2018 at 6:36 PM, Evoria said:

https://clips.twitch.tv/DeterminedSassyAmazonPanicBasket

 

An explanation of what's happening in this clip:

My party had been pulling trains and AoE'ing in this room for a good while now.  Another party comes up with mostly boxed characters and a couple of live nukers(the ones marked with "star" and "cross") and start hitting the trains we pull. 

This is a PvP game.  My question is: How are we supposed to defend against this type of griefing? On the official servers this wouldn't have been a problem because players would flag if their AoE skills hit another flagged player.  Why was this feature taken out?  It doesn't prevent griefing at all.  All it does is switch the dynamic of who can grief.  

I vote that we should re-introduce this mechanic into the game.  I believe exp spots like this should go to the group/person who can WIN the PvP fight. What do you guys think?

P.S. Exico 

[Dreadnought]

On 10/28/2018 at 12:36 PM, Evoria said:

https://clips.twitch.tv/DeterminedSassyAmazonPanicBasket

 

An explanation of what's happening in this clip:

My party had been pulling trains and AoE'ing in this room for a good while now.  Another party comes up with mostly boxed characters and a couple of live nukers(the ones marked with "star" and "cross") and start hitting the trains we pull. 

This is a PvP game.  My question is: How are we supposed to defend against this type of griefing? On the official servers this wouldn't have been a problem because players would flag if their AoE skills hit another flagged player.  Why was this feature taken out?  It doesn't prevent griefing at all.  All it does is switch the dynamic of who can grief.  

I vote that we should re-introduce this mechanic into the game.  I believe exp spots like this should go to the group/person who can WIN the PvP fight. What do you guys think?

Evoria, if I understand this correctly you are concerned that Flame Strike does not make you flag when it goes off near a flagged player.  This is annoying but a temporary problem, flame strike is obsoleted 40+ and those 40+ AoE's do indeed make you flag when you use them.

There are ways of dealing with these kind of jerkfaces, group with an SpS with Ice Dagger and a WC/OL with Madness.  Ice Dagger will keep their HP low and madness will switch the mob on them for a quick kill.

[Sediyon]

4 hours ago, Saintly said:

 

For those who don't want to flag when they AoE/farm in top spots, here's a solution, farm in shit spots that none cares for and none will bother you.
If people want top exp/drops they better be prepared to defend/fight for the spot.

 

Also a reply/update on the issue from @Juji or @Hime would great for everyone i guess since.

all posts talking about the current system are people who actually WANT to pvp for spot but cant as the ksers/grievers are protected lol.  

if you have a party aoeing. i can solo walk in there with my pole and just start whacking away.   no, i wont take aggro so you wont stun kill me with mobs. and no obviously i wont flag back lol. so you can either kill me and go red. which means i will rez myself with my box/return and then freely kill you because you are red and i wont get flag if i attack you so you will die or have to leave.  and then i will continue to ks your group, and if im a spoiler ill enjoy taking that with mass spoil too so u go red and die too or leave. great pvp options for defending your spot against people who are b*tches and refuse to flag due to the protective system

it should be LESS protective for shiitbags. make it so that when you attack a red player first, that player can kill you back without adding a pk point.  that way i can go red on a kser, and work off my karma.  of course im still fkd if a party comes at me but at least 1 random lowbie wont be able to come up to me and kill me without m ebeing able to fight back (or fighting back and wasting my character into permared lol)

ofc most of this is at lower levels like ob, ac and partisans but thats where the experience starts for all players and also where the most little #$$#$@%#@$ are at doing this stuff.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Sediyon

[Evoria]

31 minutes ago, Ripo said:

P.S. Exico 

You're famous now!

26 minutes ago, Dreadnought said:

Evoria, if I understand this correctly you are concerned that Flame Strike does not make you flag when it goes off near a flagged player.  This is annoying but a temporary problem, flame strike is obsoleted 40+ and those 40+ AoE's do indeed make you flag when you use them.

There are ways of dealing with these kind of jerkfaces, group with an SpS with Ice Dagger and a WC/OL with Madness.  Ice Dagger will keep their HP low and madness will switch the mob on them for a quick kill.

 Oh that is good news. I didn't know that about the 40+ nukes. Yeah I was thinking about doing something like that but with sting from a BD/SK and a a level 1 pk. Thanks for the info!

[Dannyboy]

There is no one fix for this PvP system.  But I feel a great start would be if you are RED and someone tries to KILL the RED player, THEY go purple.  This way you could PK BR asshats that have zero respect for other gamers.  And your party could defend you if they come back to try to kill the red.

 

Hitting REDS makes you go PURPLE,  Also a red can defend himself and not take more Karma.

 

D,